[00:00:00] Hi everyone. My name's Dex Randall, and this is the Burnout Recovery Podcast where I teach professionals to recover from burnout and get back to passion and reward at work.

[00:00:23] Hello my friends. This is Dex, and today I'm delighted to welcome a special guest, Urs Koenig, who is a leadership expert, bestselling author, UN peacekeeper, ultra endurance champion and widely published professor. And Urs came to my attention through his book, "Radical Humility: Be a Badass Leader and a Good Human", which resonates very deeply with me already, because this is the ethos I work with in my own leadership coaching practice. And that I very much hope you will be inspired to adopt in your own leadership, since humble, heart-centered and empowering leadership also happens to be the most successful in terms of business, teamwork, and career success. And frankly, I find that idea very difficult to argue with and very wonderful to live with.

[00:01:18] In the last episode, we did bust a few myths then about leadership. So let the festivities continue with round two today.

[00:01:29] Hi Urs and welcome. How are you today?

[00:01:32] Thanks for having me, Dex, I'm excellent. I appreciate you inviting me on your show.

[00:01:37] It is lovely to speak. I've been looking forward to it. And listeners, before we jump in, you know when I invite a guest onto the show, and I'm not quite certain how to pronounce their name correctly, I look it up on Google, and this week for the first time ever, I got a video of this actual Urs himself, telling me how to pronounce his own name, Urs Koenig, the Bear King.

[00:02:01] There you go. Ridiculous.

[00:02:04] That's right. So my parents really named me the bear, like Ursos the bear, and Koenig means king in English, so yeah, that's right. Very humble, right? Very humble.

[00:02:15] Yeah. Fantastic name. Can we swap?

[00:02:18] At least I'd know how to pronounce it then, right?

[00:02:20] So anyway, I read the book, Radical Humility. There it is, I see it on the shelf behind you. It's going to be in the show notes, listeners today, of course. Full of great stories, the book, and I'm very keen for you to start here with sharing with the listeners what inspired you exactly on this journey of radical humility.

[00:02:39] I've been intrigued by humility as a personal trait for a long time. So you mentioned I have an ultra endurance background. I always really liked hanging around those athletes who let the legs do the talking versus the big mouth. But I really discovered humility as a leadership trait in the early 2010s after the financial crisis, when everything was going upside down. And a lot of my clients, I did a lot of coaching back then, like you do, were still leading top down command-control, very centralized leadership, often fear-based. And I was looking for different ways of leading, because what they were doing did not work.

[00:03:22] They were always a step behind. Of course there is transformational leadership and servant leadership. And then that's when I stumbled upon the Edgar and Peter Schein book Humble Leadership. And that sparked my interest on a sort of intellectual level. But then frankly, Dex, what really inspired me to look into humility in greater depth was my two deployments on peacekeeping missions.

[00:03:46] So in 2017, I deployed as a NATO peacekeeper to the Balkans. And then in '21 for a year with the UN in the Middle East. And counterintuitively, I found that the best commanders were actually deeply humble leaders. So I firsthand experienced humble leadership in the military.

[00:04:06] I didn't expect that at all, but the best commanders I had, and there were plenty of them: deep self-awareness, built fearless psychologically safe teams, built meaningful relationships with team members. So that personal experience inspired me to actually sit down and write the book.

[00:04:22] I did feel that the unique peacekeeping lens is something that sets my book apart.

[00:04:28] Yeah. Interesting. And I share your observation about what works in leadership. People sometimes ask me if I coach on the strategic side. No, 'cause other people do that, and also they have their skillsets, but if they are not really effective and connected leaders, they're wasting a lot of their own talent and the team's talent as well.

[00:04:49] I get challenged frequently, on the ideas of humble leadership, because of what's going on on the political level right now, and not just in the US. And we don't have to talk about politics, but it's fair to say that some of the big leaders are not exactly the most humble.

[00:05:07] What I come back with is, first of all, simply because it seems to be going out of fashion to build meaningful and trusting relationships with our people at the moment doesn't mean that it's not effective. Democracy seems to be on the decline. I still believe in it. Right?

[00:05:22] And the second piece, I would say that, as you are saying Dex, the research on the effectiveness for teams - and I'm not promoting humble leadership because we want to be nice, kind, or liked- it drives engagement, it drives productivity. It drives results, right?

[00:05:38] The research is crystal clear and we need to look at it in the long run. Fear-based leadership might work for a short period of time, but in the long run, all the research shows that's not the way to go. Anyway, you didn't ask me that question, but it just came up so I thought I'll throw it out there.

[00:05:53] Talk about anything you like. You know what brings this into sharp relief for me is yesterday I saw a Forbes article come up in my feed and it was talking about the death of empathic leadership, that arose in COVID when we were all stuck in our homes. The leadership style changed then, and now it's returning back to hardnosed results-oriented. 

[00:06:16] And I thought, wow, how can Forbes put an article out that says that, 'cause they've really missed the point entirely about what creates results? Because to me, empathic leadership is completely results-oriented.

[00:06:30] That's exactly right. Tough on results, tender on people. That's exactly right. Yeah.

[00:06:35] Yeah. So did you, when you were coming across all of this then, and maturing your thinking, did you have a specific aha moment?

[00:06:42] Not really. There were multiple aha moments along the way, but there was not like one big. I'm pretty pragmatic guy. I have very few eureka moments in my life. I had one actually when I transitioned into executive coaching of all places in Sydney, Australia in 2002.

[00:06:59] But that's a different conversation. But no, there was numerous events. One small anecdote. My commanding officer in the Balkans, and I write about this in the book, calls me to his office, sits me down and says, you know, Urs I love you. You know I do. And your work is not even close to being good enough.

[00:07:19] Ant t hat made me shrink in my chair, because I knew he didn't just say he loved me, he meant it because we worked together for the last six months. He cared about my career path, my wellbeing outside of work as well. So he really meant it that he cared for me and because I knew he cared for me, the tough feedback he had for me really landed. If he would've yelled at me or chewed me out, I would've tuned him out, another high ranking officer who, whatever, and not cared.

[00:07:46] That was one of those aha moments where, oh, this really works. Like I experienced it on the receiving end myself. And that is humble leadership, tough on results, tender on people. I see you, I care for you. I see you outside of just the machine that gets stuff done for me, and I'm going to hold you to the highest standards.

[00:08:07] Yeah. Interesting that you mentioned that, 'cause my perception of what I hear about military leadership is how far as advanced it is compared with other industries. For example, I read Jocko Willink's book, which I'm sure you know, called Extreme Ownership, where you must take full command of everything that's happening in your environment and for your team.

[00:08:35] He's built like a brick shithouse, but he comes across as, yeah, I love you, man, but you're not doing well enough. You need this. Same thing. But they're, from my perspective, and correct me if I'm wrong here, they're taught this level of leadership because their lives depend on it.

[00:08:51] Their teamwork has to be at the greatest possible level under the most difficult circumstances.

[00:09:00] I think you are right. You know he's special ops, right? If you look at how special ops teams are led and work together, it is exactly what you're talking about.

[00:09:13] In fact, I coach people out of special ops into the civilian life. They're done with their career. They constantly tell each other that they love each other when they do After Action Review, that's actually out of the book. Rank switched off, humility switched on. Doesn't matter who's the boss, we own what we mess up.

[00:09:32] The best and most successful teams understand that being vulnerable together is the only way that the team can become invulnerable. And that is exactly the case in those special ops teams. I do think we can benefit in the business world a lot from that.

[00:09:48] Now, of course, it's less intense, right? Hopefully your and my life. Although, some environments, it depends on it. Surgical teams, airline crew. All the places where there has been research on the value of humility, on the value of psychological safety, showing that this stuff can save lives because lives are on the line.

[00:10:08] It's been demonstrated across all these teams, so I think you're exactly right. We can benefit a great deal from that. Now that special ops in the military, there's plenty of not special ops environments in the military that are still very top down, command control and outdated leadership, much like in the business world .

[00:10:26] Yeah you raised some very interesting examples in your book, and also I saw the one about the doctors. I work with a lot of physicians and I would agree that the same kind of approach or mentality does exist there because it's a life or death situation at some point.

[00:10:45] I really related with the book by the way, thought it was marvelous.

[00:10:48] So let's just talk about that, 'cause our listeners will probably not have read your book. Do you wanna just outline the book, or talk about the five shifts?

[00:10:57] Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. I talk about the five shifts, but if you want three pillars, I can give you those as well.

[00:11:04] How about can we do it in Loaves and Fishes?

[00:11:07] Very good. Radical humility and leadership stands on three legs, which translate into the five shifts. The first one is deep self-awareness, and that's what people think of, when they think of humility, I see myself in line with how others see me.

[00:11:24] And by the way, not too low either, and certainly not too high. So deep self-awareness, and that is what I call shift one, digging deep. It also means having the humility to know that I can't do it all myself, and so I can do almost anything I put my mind to, but I can't do everything. So the famous stop doing list, saying no to stuff.

[00:11:45] So that's the deep self-awareness.

[00:11:47] The second pillar and the second shift is Relational Leadership. Rather than only leading by content expertise, I lead by relationship. And that's where "Tough on Results, Tender on People" comes in. We just talked about this.

[00:12:02] And Leading Like a Compass.

[00:12:05] How do I empower? How do I delegate through clarity of a shared purpose? And then I get the hell out of the way. That's Lead, Like a Compass.

[00:12:15] The next pillar, which is also on the leading relationally, is Providing Full Transparency.

[00:12:22] And that's the transparency to show up vulnerably as a leader. I'm very passionate about that topic by the way, Dex. How vulnerability is one of the quickest, most powerful and most effective ways to build trust. Plenty of research shows that, and of course not every vulnerability is appropriate.

[00:12:37] So that's being transparent about my weaknesses as a leader. And also about business goals and strategies. We can almost never over communicate what we need to achieve as a team to our team members. And so being transparent around goals and strategies.

[00:12:56] The last pillar, which is the fifth shift, is Championing a Fearless, Psychologically Safe Culture. We just talked about. Which means giving everybody on the team a voice, making it safe for everybody to speak up with questions, concerns, crazy ideas. So that's the three pillars, five shifts that I outline in the book.

[00:13:14] Okay, good. 'cause now that set the ground, people know where we're at. And that language, in that last shift, this championing this psychological safety is very much the kind of language that I use, because I think this book really centers around emotional intelligence. And emotional intelligence is, if you look at the statistics, the most in demand leadership skill that hiring managers are looking for right now in leaders.

[00:13:41] Yeah. And I'm not an AI expert, but I would argue that, 

[00:13:46] EI becomes even more important as AI becomes more important.

[00:13:50] That has been said plenty of times we're no longer the smartest, but what you and I are doing right now, like connecting eye to eye on a human level. That's going to be a while, until that can be replicated. I absolutely think, those soft skills, by the way, they're not soft. The soft stuff is tough. The soft stuff is tough. For sure. And it's ever so more important, I totally agree with you.

[00:14:15] For most of the leaders that I work with, they come from a highly skilled background, like a physician or like a lawyer or an accountant. They're very personally skilled and they've floated on that. And then they have to transition to people and most of them find that quite confronting 'cause most people are not taught how to do that.

[00:14:33] In my experience, the highly skilled professionals, doctors, lawyers, consultant, they also fall into the transfer fallacy trap, right? They think because they're great professionals, makes them also great leaders and often that's not straightforward and it's not taught, right? I was in Alaska last week and I spoke to the Alaska Hospital Association, which was, by the way, a great trip. The client took me fishing the next day. It was awesome. Anyway, we talked a lot about that. And those leaders in the room, most of them actually had deep self-awareness, around exactly that. We're taught all this stuff, but nobody teaches us how to engage and relate to people, so they feel safe to speak up when something goes wrong or something is on the line, so we actually can have better outcomes .

[00:15:15] Yeah, and I had this experience myself. I resisted promotion for years 'cause I knew I had no idea how to lead people. I came from a software design background.

[00:15:26] Originally I did transition into leadership and crashed and burned a little bit because I was a total dictator, and it took me quite a while to learn how leadership works, and when I discovered it, I was over the moon. It became total fun again.

[00:15:42] What was the transition there for you? What switched the lightbulb on?

[00:15:46] I got feedback.

[00:15:48] Okay.

[00:15:49] I could see how unpleasant it was for people to work with me.

[00:15:53] I could just see it in their faces. I was like, I don't wanna be that person. I don't wanna hurt them. I did management courses, but they don't teach you leadership.

[00:16:01] Right.

[00:16:02] And I had to self-teach. And then when I got that right and I started being able to bond team members together and bond full teams with other teams they'd been at war with, I was like, oh, a new game. Love it.

[00:16:15] I love that. That's excellent. And, to your credit, you were able to hear the feedback. We often receive feedback and it doesn't go anywhere, because we're not able to hear it, we're not able to take it in.

[00:16:26] It's not very easy to listen to. For anybody who's not a very good leader, it's not an easy thing to hear.

[00:16:32] But if you see yourself hurting people, or shutting people down... Most people who come to me, and they're not good leaders, they really would love to be better leaders.

[00:16:41] They'd love to support their people better.

[00:16:43] Yeah. But they just don't know how.

[00:16:44] They're just sweating bullets every day.

[00:16:47] Yeah. What often happens, and that comes back to humble leadership, is when we are insecure in our leadership because we sense that something's not quite right, but we don't know exactly what it is and how to fix it.

[00:17:01] Often we overcompensate by being overly aggressive or, want to be coming across an overly confident, borderline arrogant. And so we hide that insecurity and that's what I see quite a bit with folks. And when there is the awareness built and frankly also the vulnerability to say, look, I have symptoms in my team, I have turnover. The results are in there, and then they're able to look at that and share, and we can work together to make it better. That's one of the most gratifying things that you can do with a client, right? Dex? Yeah.

[00:17:35] Yeah, and I didn't have turnover. That wasn't really my problem, but I definitely was having some feedback about being arrogant. The people who come to me are usually very high achieving professionals, leaders in burnout. So insecurity comes with the package, and so we all have that reactivity to that, and we start thinking, okay, I've got the answer, I'll just give it to them. That's how I can produce results.

[00:18:00] That's right. Be a problem framer not a problem solver. We talked about that actually last week with those medical professionals. Let's frame the problem together instead of me solving it for you. 

[00:18:12] Yeah. So if you get leaders that you're working with for the first time, they just come to you, how can you help them start realistically to pivot from what you call THEN leadership to NOW leadership in their day to day process?

[00:18:28] Maybe two or three things that are low hanging fruit that I think can really move the needle.

[00:18:36] The first thing is, and it sounds so simple, but it's not easy. The first thing is to ask for regular feedback from your team members on how you're doing as a leader. And this looks like this because Dex, you and I have a weekly one-on-one, and if we don't, we need to talk about this at least every two weeks at the minimum.

[00:18:57] And at the end of each of those one-on-ones, I want you to ask your team member. Hey Dex, I'm starting to get some feedback. I wanna gather some feedback on how I'm doing as your manager. What do you see me do well and what do you see not so doing well as your manager?

[00:19:12] Where can I get better? What do I do well? Ask it every single time.

[00:19:19] So you build the muscle, it doesn't become that scary thing. You might do a 360 every whatever 12 month or get the feedback once every six months. So regularly asking for feedback on what I'm doing well and what I can do better from my team members.

[00:19:34] That's number one. We can talk about how to set this up. You wanna set this up, you wanna frame it beforehand. You want to talk in the department meeting that you're going to do that. That's that.

[00:19:43] The second piece is more on the introspection. So I'm a huge fan of journaling and everybody has their own way of reflecting on their leadership.

[00:19:54] People practice mindfulness. But I'm a huge fan of regularly reflecting on my leadership through journaling, especially as I start to ask for feedback on a regular basis. Couple of questions.

[00:20:06] What did I do well over the last 24 hours?

[00:20:09] What did I not do well over the last 24 hours?

[00:20:13] And what's the one most important thing I want to achieve in my leadership today?

[00:20:16] Those three things on a daily basis, so regular reflection.

[00:20:20] So those are the two most basic things that I think will help people immediately to transition towards a more humble and relational leadership approach.

[00:20:31] For sure they'd be the ones they'd be keenest to adopt, 'cause nobody's scared of a 360. Are they?

[00:20:37] Well, people are scared to ask for feedback. We all are scared because why? We are scared of what we're going to hear. The soft stuff is not soft, it's tough. Those people who have the big mouth and then they can't actually ask for feedback from their team members. Like, that doesn't work, right?

[00:20:54] So let's build it in small steps. Ask 'em for regular feedback.

[00:20:58] One other exercise, which I really like, when we're talking about empowering and delegating, is actually clarifying with your team members individually, the sort of decisions you expect them to make themselves, and the sort of decisions you want them to come to you for advice and run it by you.

[00:21:18] Let's ask ourselves, dear listeners and watchers, when's the last time you had an explicit conversation with each of your team members? Talking about: that stuff, Dex, you need to figure out on your own. That's what I expect. And that stuff, I want you to come to me. If it's resource scarcity or we have conflict around goals or whatever, that's the stuff I want you to come to me with.

[00:21:39] So being crystal clear about those two different things. Handle it on your own and come to me with. That's another exercise which I really like to do, which helps people.

[00:21:48] That's more fun than the 360.

[00:21:50] It sure is!

[00:21:51] In all my time working for other leaders, nobody ever set that clarity. And when I read that in the book, I just thought, yeah, it's amazing how many truly foundational, trust-building, useful strategies are completely left out of most people's leadership.

[00:22:11] Yeah. And some of them are very basic, like the three we just talked about. Yeah.

[00:22:16] Okay. Here's another curly question. I bet people are pleading with me to ask this one. How do you think leaders can maintain standards whilst also nurturing empathy.

[00:22:29] The short answer is do what my commander did. Show me. Really show me, don't just say. Show me that you care for me. And then at the same time, hold me to the highest standards. And by the way, I wanna be super clear here. Sometimes the most loving thing I can do Dex is to release you to the labor pool.

[00:22:52] Maybe that's most loving thing. I can let you go. That's maybe the best thing for everybody. I'm not suggesting we go immediately there at all, but I wanna be very clear. It's not soft, it's not touchy feely. It's showing my people that I care for them as human beings. And this is very basic interpersonal interactions.

[00:23:15] What do I know about your family Dex? What do I know where you want to be professionally and personally in 2, 3, 4, 5 years? How did you spend last weekend? I have a little exercise in the book actually. Ask about the last weekend.

[00:23:27] By the way, quick side note, you wanna be a leader? You gotta love people. You don't love people, don't do leadership. There's plenty of other stuff. We don't have enough career path for individual contributors who are high achievers. It's slowly changing, but still, we promote our best ICs,

[00:23:46] some of them shouldn't be, and don't want to be leaders, into managerial positions.

[00:23:51] You don't have to be an extrovert, you can be an introvert, but you've gotta fundamentally love people. It can't be forced that you're asking, that you're interested in the other, person's personal background as well.

[00:24:03] So give me that. And then high standards, like that's what's expected, end of story.

[00:24:09] You would think this would be the norm rather than the exception. But after all these years, we are still almost trying to get the message across about what good leadership is.

[00:24:19] Yeah. And some of it at least is leaders worry about revealing too much about their personal lives. They feel they have to have this Chinese wall still. And of course there's also people who overshare. But you're absolutely right.

[00:24:33] It's amazing to me still that we have to continue to teach that if you indeed see your staff member as a whole human being, you'll get the best out of them, no question about it.

[00:24:48] Do you have any examples in your personal leadership where admitting your own mistakes or weaknesses or vulnerability shifted the team dynamics around you?

[00:24:58] Absolutely. Maybe not a mistake per se, but vulnerability. When I rejoined the military in 2017 to serve in the Kosovo mission, I had been out of the military for 22 years. Needless to say, my military knowledge was totally outdated.

[00:25:14] I did not know how to dress myself anymore. I didn't know what happens with the combat boots down there. And then I dropped the flak jacket and got chewed up by a young sergeant. I was really a bit of a greenhorn, but I had a command. I was not a high ranking officer, was a captain, but I had a command, and yet my knowledge was outdated.

[00:25:33] I was super transparent with my team, who reported to me. That they know much more than I do. I've been out for 22 years and some of these young officers, they've been in the military this whole time. And so crystal clear on I need your help. I'm going to work my sweet behind, off to get there.

[00:25:53] And I'm not perfect. I'm working on getting my military knowledge up to date. And they told me later, not in the moment, that really builds trust with them because I was able, as an old guy, to admit that I needed to get better and learn before I could deploy. So that's a personal example where admitting my shortcomings with some vulnerability and clearly talking about what I'm doing about it to get up to speed, really build trust in my team.

[00:26:22] I bet. And how do you, when you're talking about humility of leadership, how do you address the misconception that humility is the same thing as passivity? It's weakness.

[00:26:34] Yeah. I get that a lot. I actually argue that humility and confidence go hand in hand. You cannot be asking the humble questions such as, "Hey, Dex, give me some feedback on what I do well and what I can do better." if I don't have a fundamentally strong sense of self. What we talked about earlier, not deep insecurities, but a strong sense of self and confidence in my abilities, I will not be able, and I won't ask those humble questions.

[00:27:01] Confidence and humility go hand in hand. Only if I'm fundamentally confident can I show up with appropriate humility. Yeah, absolutely. They go together. 

[00:27:11] I think so too because otherwise you have all of these hidden aspects of you that then cause you to feel insecure and vulnerable and behave in brittle ways. Once you've let people see who you really are, you haven't got so much at stake anymore, you're not so terrified people are going to find out bad things about you.

[00:27:31] Exactly. We don't have to hide stuff, that could be found out, the famous imposter syndrome, which I'm sure plenty of your clients have as well. 

[00:27:38] Very much. Yeah.

[00:27:38] One day somebody will find out that I don't actually belong here and I shouldn't have this position, I shouldn't be in this leadership job. Exactly right.

[00:27:45] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:46] I know you belong in the right place 'cause you've made a whole video saying how to pronounce your name.

[00:27:52] That's right.

[00:27:53] So cool.

[00:27:55] On that, just briefly, the same goes with humility and ambition. So what does ambition look like? Ambition looks like asking the hard questions. Why are we not achieving what we want to achieve? What's my part in it? What can I do better? And only if I have the humility to ask these questions, will I then be able to get to those ambitious goals.

[00:28:17] We could talk about this too, leading in today's fast moving AI world. It's by definition humbling. No one person can know it all. I need you. I need you. And together we can all figure it out, but no one person can know it all. So by definition it's humbling.

[00:28:32] Yeah. And this is something that I teach my people. So when I teach burnout recovery, what I really want to turn out is really powerful, confident leaders who lead with passion and heart, partly because that's very comfortable and enjoyable for them, but mostly because they're going to go further in their career than was ever possible before.

[00:28:56] I love how you framed that. I love that. So it's better for them and it gets them further and makes them more successful. And by the way, a nice side benefit is it's also more pleasant for the people who work for them. So it's a win. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:29:16] This vulnerability. So if people are scared of sharing their private stuff, which we all are, especially people with a tendency to burn out, terrified, you don't have to tell them if you are, I don't know, bedwetting when you were 12. It's not everything, right? It's just the appropriate things that are going to help even the playing field a little bit so you can connect with your people more genuinely, authentically, and strongly.

[00:29:42] That's exactly right. I often push vulnerability, to make the point, but you are totally correct. Vulnerability does not mean I have to show my darkest secrets and un dig all my past. But one powerful way to show up with appropriate vulnerability is to actually communicate a meaningful personal goal.

[00:30:00] Like I as the leader communicate a meaningful personal goal. It shows that I'm too work in progress, right? And always strive to get better. You asked me about another vulnerability example. Just super briefly. I write about this in the book. One of my commanding officers in the Middle East opened an After Action Review with these words.

[00:30:18] She said, I screwed that up and I know it, and here is what I'm going to do about it, so it'll never happen again. So her ability to go first and modeled what she wanted all of us to do, and that's appropriate vulnerability.

[00:30:32] Yeah and that's very well framed also I think, and don't forget listeners, so, if you haven't read the book yet, look for Urs's links in the show notes of the book. Especially that because it's really it's very informative and it's very deep in strategy and tactics, but it's also like a singalong.

[00:30:50] You get exercises all the way through that if you practice them will for sure uplift your leadership capacities. And also I think boost your comfort level with leadership. 

[00:31:02] So kind of you Dex, because I had three goals. I wanted to make the book research based, personal and I wanted to have lots of exercises. So I'm so glad that it resonated for you like that.

[00:31:14] Yeah, you nailed that for sure. So, is there anything that you are working on now that you'd like to talk about? Anything we didn't mention?

[00:31:23] No, I think the book and I'm out on the speaking circuits. I do keynote on psychological safety and radical humility in leadership. And I'll be in Australia, as we mentioned at the end of next month. Really looking forward to do my 25 year MBA reunion in Sydney.

[00:31:39] I can't wait for that. It's going to be fun.

[00:31:42] Congratulations, 25 years. Wow.

[00:31:45] I know that makes me real old,

[00:31:46] But don't worry, we'll do the great leveler and go for a swim in the ocean. Alright. Any last words? Anything you wished I'd asked you about or anything else you'd like to say before we go?

[00:31:55] Do this one thing, regularly for feedback from your team members. What do I do well as your manager? What can I do better? That's the one thing we all need to do.

[00:32:07] Alright, so that is all we've got time for today. Thank you so much for being here today Urs and sharing those ideas with us. It's been such a pleasure to chat with you.

[00:32:17] Thank you for having me. We had fun.

[00:32:19] Listeners, if you've enjoyed today's show, I would love you to rate the podcast and share it with your friends. 'cause this podcast is free, it's in the top 5% of our podcasts, but your rating is important to me personally, so thank you.

[00:32:33] Finally, if you are in burnout and you'd like to work with me to fix that, book free consult at dexrandall.com, to discover exactly how you can get your mojo back and also find some of the assets that Urs has shared with us today happening in your leadership.