[00:00:00] Hi everyone. My name's Dex Randall, and this is the Burnout to Leadership Podcast where I teach professional men to recover from burnout and get back to passion and reward at work.

[00:00:22] Hello my friends. This is Dex, and today I'm delighted to welcome a special guest, Jonno white, co-founder of Clarity Group Global in Australia, and author of a book on managing difficult employees that sold over 10,000 copies globally. The name of the book is Step up or step out, how to deal with difficult people even if you hate conflict.

[00:00:46] And this, dear listener, is why we're tuning into Jonno today. He also hosts, by the way, the Leadership Conversations podcast. So hi Jonno, welcome. 

[00:00:58] Hi Dex. Thanks so much for having me. 

[00:01:00] How are you doing today? 

[00:01:02] I'm doing very well. My wife and I have an eight week old little daughter, so my, uh. my days and my nights are all a bit of a blur together. But she's just a gorgeous wonderful little girl. We have a two and a half year old little toddler as well, so our house is very full. 

[00:01:17] I saw a lovely photograph of your family on your site. 

[00:01:20] Yeah, there is. Yeah, we are very blessed. I don't think I've put one of Giovanna up there yet, so if you see it on the site, it's probably Liz and me and Roman our little boy who's just a delight. 

[00:01:30] Yeah. Marvelous. We're sorry to tug you away from them for a little while. Anyhow, I'm gonna jump straight in. 

[00:01:37] Sure. 

[00:01:38] I got a bunch of burning questions.

[00:01:39] Because it's obviously a hot topic with people that I work with, professionals and leaders and burnout. So. I'm just gonna come straight off the bat with what is the biggest thing that you see leaders getting wrong, when team

[00:01:52] members are not performing? 

[00:01:55] Yeah the number one thing I see is that we. Put off the little conversations and it's not because people have bad intentions, it's often because of good intentions. So as leaders, we don't wanna go there, we don't wanna micromanage, we don't wanna pick the wrong time to have the conversation.

[00:02:14] We can see someone's already struggling, all these things are happening. So we put off a little conversation and the biggest problem is that the more we put off those little conversations, it builds up and it builds up in the relationship. It sometimes builds up so it affects other people. And sometimes you have your boss coming to you and tapping you on the shoulder, and saying, you've gotta start dealing with that. Sometimes you have a colleague of the person who says, will you please deal with that person?

[00:02:37] Oh my goodness. Otherwise I don't know how long I can stay here. Or you reach your own point where you go, that's it. They've crossed some kind of line. And so the big mistake we make is we don't have these little ones for good reasons, best intentions, but then we end up having to have a massive confrontation, and that's where all hell breaks loose.

[00:02:56] Yeah, I'm with you on that one. And I think two of the reasons we don't have those conversations, it's number one, nobody taught us how to be a leader when we got promoted. 


[00:03:04] And number two, we don't want to tell them how to do their job actually, because they're professionals, they should already know how to do their job.

[00:03:10] We actually don't want to impinge or criticize right from the outset. So I think most leaders are absolutely terrible at setting expectations or just skip that whole page altogether. 

[00:03:23] You're so right. One of the things that really reinforces that is think about your best people.

[00:03:27] The people you click the best with, the people that you know, you mention it once in passing and it'll get done and get done early. Those people are amazing. And so what that reinforces is sometimes we can manage them without clear expectations and it still works. And that's where it can be confusing.

[00:03:46] 'cause you think when you run into someone that's really different to you, or a truly difficult person and they are out there, then all of your systems that have worked with your best people or even average people, suddenly start breaking. It's really frustrating for leaders when that happens.

[00:04:01] Yeah. And I think everybody who's a leader will be listening to this as the person who's been branded as difficult as well. 'cause all of us have worn that pair of shoes as well . I certainly 

[00:04:10] have - sometimes I've been the difficult employee and sometimes I've been the leader.

[00:04:13] So , you know what intrigued me? 'cause I was reading your book in preparation for this chat with you and the way that you talk about setting expectations, and we'll go more into that in a minute, setting expectations and accountability is a lot like I would talk about setting boundaries. So from the outset, when you're laying a plan for a team member, do you see it as boundaries or how do you see it?

[00:04:35] To be honest, I hadn't thought about it like that. But as you're explaining it, I can see the parallel. I'd love to hear your thoughts. How do you see that? Because that's literally the first time I've had that comparison mate. 

[00:04:46] I do a lot of work with boundaries with my clients, 

[00:04:49] who typically don't have very good boundaries. But the way I think about boundaries is we can't control another adult. 

[00:04:56] Yeah. 

[00:04:57] Or a team member or a professional or colleague or whatever. We can't control them. They'll do whatever they want, they're adults.

[00:05:02] But what we can do is say, here's what I would love it if you could do, but if you do that thing, then the consequence is gonna be this. And then every time they do that thing, the consequence is enacted. So you don't say you can do this, you can't do that. But you do say this will be the consequence if. 

[00:05:21] And then you carry it out every time. And in that way it seemed a bit similar. 

[00:05:25] Oh, it is. No, I love that. I heard something recently on a podcast where they were saying that the definition of a boundary, it's something that you will enact and that you will bring the consequence on, rather than having the expectation on the other person around the boundary.

[00:05:39] They don't need to do anything. They just keep being them. 

[00:05:42] Exactly. I thought that was really interesting and yes, it is. Because one of the key breakthroughs in the book, that I've experienced in my own journey doing this and also helping a lot of other leaders to manage people that they're finding really difficult, is that when you set the expectations one of the expectations you can set is about the conversation you're gonna have with them along the way.

[00:06:03] So that consequence that you are talking about in the boundary, what I coach leaders to do is to actually have a conversation and I like to use the self-deprecating apology, that's what I call it, 

[00:06:14] Yeah. I love that. 

[00:06:16] I think for a lot of leaders they're thinking, where can I start?

[00:06:18] And often a leader will be reading my book or they'll wanna work with me and there's two years of horror that's gone on. And unless it's a non-negotiable, life or death, serious issues, if it's more behavioral, I think sometimes it's best to almost start from scratch. And that's because

[00:06:35] it's much less about the conversation you have with the person, and it's all about the ecosystem that conversation is in. You've gotta create the environment. And when you have a self-deprecating apology, and I've done this myself it's about saying authentically, not in a manipulative way, but hey, 

[00:06:51] yeah, 

[00:06:51] I've been reflecting or say to people, just say you've read the book or you've been chatting with me.

[00:06:55] Or sometimes saying to someone, you know what? I've been really challenged recently to do better with how clear I am with expectations and what I was reflecting and I don't know if I've done that really well.

[00:07:07] So I want to get better at doing that. And one of the things I wanna do is, I can be a little bit chicken around actually having tough conversations. I personally find it hard. I know I do. And so 

[00:07:18] Along probably 99% of other people. 

[00:07:21] Yeah, that's right. You can actually say, and so one thing I wanna do is if I do see something around those boundaries, where I've got some feedback for you, I'm gonna pluck up the courage and I'm gonna walk up to you and I'm gonna have the little conversation with you. And the startling thing is that most people, when you have that conversation, and it's done authentically, actually really appreciate that as an idea.

[00:07:39] And a lot of people say I do want more feedback. Now it doesn't mean those conversations are like that, often they're still very uncomfortable. They're awkward, but they're little uncomfortable. They're little awkward conversations. And once you do those and you go there, it doesn't blow up everywhere.

[00:07:53] It's sometimes a bit awkward, but it doesn't usually blow up. And what it does is it then creates a cadence of this accountability where if you have to go there every day with someone, which sometimes you do, and If you've set them up that they know you're going to do that, very quickly

[00:08:07] they will either change their behavior or actually get super sick of that little accountability. Just a human thing, I think because of our longing for belonging and that it's awkward and so people do change their behavior . But it's all about the process that you do that in. 

[00:08:21] Yeah, I thought it was pretty solid, the process in the book, I do recommend that people read it. So we're really talking about not setting expectations and therefore having difficulties with people and letting that lapse as leaders. But you did mention just now not to hire difficult people.

[00:08:36] And you talk about this in the book. How do you make sure not to hire?

[00:08:39] I remember myself when I was in a leadership role and I had this person who was in my world and they were chomping at the bit to help me out in something I really needed help with.

[00:08:50] I was so desperate that I was just ready to get them on the team. And I remember in passing a friend of mine who this other person had worked for previously, they pulled me aside and they said, Hey, just so you know, I think I saw that you're looking at working with this person.

[00:09:06] I've actually found, when they were working for me, there was actually this issue with how they followed through on some stuff and they weren't exactly honest about some things, and I just thought I'd warn you. So what did I do? What every great author of a leadership book would do.

[00:09:20] I hired them anyway and 

[00:09:22] We've all been there too,right? 

[00:09:23] Oh, and I said, thanks for letting me know, but... There are times where, hiring is really challenging. It's so hard to really see through, because we all wanna put our best foot forward and I think, long story short.

[00:09:36] Most leaders way underestimate the importance of the hiring process because once you're dealing with six months of someone trying to make them leave, particularly if you're in a difficult corporate or regulated environment where you need to involve HR hey, you would throw your time and your money,

[00:09:54] everything you could, at going back two years and running a proper thorough hiring process, calling some referees, looking for some red flags. So you're always gonna have the exception to the rule. I think for most leaders listening, my challenge would be: how thorough is your hiring process?

[00:10:10] Because we've all been there where you go, oh yeah, John, he seems like a good guy and he's friends with this other person. But yeah, we'll give him a shot. And that's just not good enough. Because you get one wrong and it can really hold you back and hold the whole team back.

[00:10:26] Yes, I think it can. I got a pretty good track record of hiring. I have given some people a chance because I felt they deserved it, and usually I've been proved right. But I always brought them in to meet the team. So if I can't smell a rat, one of them usually says me there's this.

[00:10:43] Yeah. 

[00:10:44] But what would you say to a leader who's inherited a team with a difficult person? Or a stack of difficult people, for them. 

[00:10:51] Yeah. So challenging, there's no easy answers for that. That's a tough course to travel as a leader.

[00:10:57] In those situations there's two sides of the coin. Someone recently on another podcast asked me about what soft skills do I think are most important for a leader, the first thing is listening.

[00:11:09] And I know we say listening, but I, my podcast, 236 episodes, the number one skill that leaders talk about when you dig into why did you love that leader, who was a terrible leader, it comes back to great listeners. And so if you can, as a new leader in that space, 

[00:11:25] Where your people would say, you know what, Dex, when I chat with him, I really feel like he hears me.

[00:11:30] And the flow on from that in my podcast is that this term comes up all the time where people say Dex had my back. A great leader. So when you walk into a team where you've inherited one or more difficult people, you want to move as quickly as you can by building authentic credibility, using active listening so that your team knows as much as possible that you have their back.

[00:11:52] That's where you build trust and credibility. This is what I talk about in the book, why are difficult people so difficult? And it's not about unclear expectations, it's because they often have unrealistic expectations.

[00:12:04] When you're dealing with someone who has unrealistic expectations or maybe is a high conflict person with family of origin, it's gonna be hard work to get them on side. The first side is active listening. The second side is learning to communicate and give feedback in a way that is small, specific, clear and early.

[00:12:26] How can you grow as a leader instead of letting stuff go and not going there, but learning to get better at challenging people. And on the small specific, being clear about it and being early with it. I had a leader on my podcast who's a head of school, and he talked about how he didn't want to go there with some of his people.

[00:12:44] He would let stuff slide and wouldn't mention it. And then a few months later, one of them sat down with him and he had a great relationship with them, but they said, you know what? I feel like there's something you're not telling me. I feel like you're holding onto something and I don't feel like I know where I stand.

[00:12:58] This person was really quite emotionally intelligent, a great employer. He said, you know what, you're right. There are probably some things that I didn't want to go there, but maybe if I had, I wouldn't have been carrying it around.

[00:13:08] They talked through what those things were. They weren't deal breakers. His big learning from that, which was years ago, was that when he doesn't have the little conversations along the way, and I'm not talking about a micromanager who's look at spelling mistake. I'm talking about having the guts to challenge someone and push back on something or to present a different idea. Or to point out something that you see that may not work. And once he started doing that more, he said he felt like his team knew where he stood because they knew that if he had something, he would say it and he would do it in an emotionally intelligent way.

[00:13:40] It would be out there and then they'd move on together. There was nothing that he was keeping from them. If someone inherited a new team tomorrow with one or more really difficult people, walk in there and just listen as much as you can to build credibility, build trust, build relationship, and start, practicing those muscles of challenging people.

[00:14:01] That's what we want. We want a leader who has our back, but also we know where we stand with them. 

[00:14:07] And I think that whole concept is channeling people like Simon Sinek, Brene Brown, Jim Collins. 

[00:14:15] All that stuff they've written about team building and authenticity and humility I think has to be somewhere in the mix.

[00:14:23] If you think you are supposed to tell people what to do as a leader, that is gonna be quite difficult. 

[00:14:29] Yeah. 

[00:14:30] This is why I think leadership can be so challenging and I just did a podcast recording today with someone who came from a government sector in Australia and talked about the leadership was just so poor in her 23 years in this organization, which breaks my heart.

[00:14:47] What happens is the higher you go, particularly if this is the culture of the place, the more power you have over who's around you. A leader who's not humble, who doesn't want to actually look in the mirror or maybe has a massive blind spot to some of their limitations, the more the more promotions they get, 

[00:15:04] particularly if they end up in, say, the CEO role, they can completely build their own ecosystem around them. Whereas if you're on the front line in an organization as a young leader in an earlier management role, boy, you're gonna hear it, right? The challenge is the higher up you get as a leader, the more you can actually shield yourself from the brutal facts of reality.

[00:15:25] So it's like this two-edged sword. 'cause you're now in a way more powerful position, but at the same time have more power to grow less, be less insightful, and potentially create a less healthy culture. And that's. tricky, 'cause I see it in myself in my past leadership roles that, hey, sometimes I didn't wanna look in the mirror, I was busy getting stuff done.

[00:15:47] And perhaps if you haven't been comfortable practicing humility, the further up the ladder you go, the less and less appeal that's gonna have for you. 

[00:15:56] Yeah, 

[00:15:56] and in the statistics, I can't remember where I heard it, but I think it was in the education sector about the number of

[00:16:02] school principals who haven't done a 360 degree feedback for themselves. And I've even recently been running into some situations where you have leaders running 360 degree feedback, where they're one of the 360, they're the boss, for everyone but themselves across leadership in an organization. 

[00:16:18] How could you even possibly think that is a good idea? And it's the reverse of everything you said. In terms of Simon Sinek, Jim Collins, you think of Leaders Eat Last Simon Sinek and that idea of, if anything, flip it the other way around. Don't get anyone else to do a 360 degree of feedback.

[00:16:34] Start with you. Just do that. Let everyone experience how you are able to actually maturely take on the feedback and then ask them to do it after that. But it's shocking sometimes, how that plays out, where they will have everyone else do it, but won't even do it themselves. 

[00:16:50] Yeah, and statistically, if you look at the research, radical candor and authenticity and honesty and humility boost your bottom line. 

[00:16:59] Yes. 

[00:17:00] There couldn't possibly be an argument against being that way. If you are prepared to be that brave and that open, and in fact that fallible. 

[00:17:09] Yeah, I am perplexed at why.

[00:17:12] I think maybe it doesn't boost your bottom line fast. Maybe that's why so many people don't see it? 

[00:17:19] Anecdotally, I would be surprised, because really what you're impacting is staff turnover on a direct level, and that's very expensive.

[00:17:28] That is true. There's something in me that's looking for a reason. Why is it that so many of these organizations, particularly at a shareholder, stakeholder, board level, don't realize how important this is. At Clarity, I've been searching for a great slogan that really summed up why we do what we do .

[00:17:45] In the past couple of years we started talking about helping leaders build the type of workplace culture that employees would move cities to work for.

[00:17:53] That sums up what we're trying to do, because if you can create that type of place as a leader, where people would go, Oh my goodness, Dex has a role! Woo! I would love to be part of that, I've heard great things about how they invest in their people and the type of work they're doing.

[00:18:07] I'd move my family there to be part of that. That has all the flow on effects you mentioned. It's great for business. 

[00:18:15] I think so, because employee costs, absenteeism, sick pay, turnover,

[00:18:22] lack of productivity I can't see why people wouldn't do it.

[00:18:24] But anyway, I'm gonna switch topics a little bit because you mentioned just now, and also it's in your book that you work with a lot of heads of schools. And I 

[00:18:32] immediately was very curious if you suggested them learning your techniques of having these difficult conversations and that they then deployed them with the parents and the kids.

[00:18:42] Yeah, this is such a fascinating topic. I have done some work on how to deal well with parents and particularly difficult parents. The kids, this is what is so interesting to me, what do great teachers do? Great teachers are masters of having difficult conversations.

[00:18:59] Truly great teachers have that ability for a student to still look up to them and respect them, but they hold the boundaries firm and they challenge them. I was with a school yesterday doing some professional development around how to challenge your people really well, and they say it about themselves.

[00:19:15] You know what's so funny is we do this with kids and we do it so well, and then we struggle to do it with each other. You have to stand next to the teachers and look at the way they deal with kids and then pull apart what they're doing and say to them now, apply that to your work with your colleagues and as managers in schools.

[00:19:35] I do find that, if you did a PD with almost any school and you had them explain to you how to do difficult conversations with kids, I would learn so much because they're experts at that. Dealing with parents is often one that they really want help with because I think sometimes it's it's tricky and gray.

[00:19:52] Yeah, so it's a, it is a funny one where they're often amazing at it with kids, but then I'll come in and work with the head of school and work across the school to help them grow in how they do that with each other. Which is a little bit confusing .

[00:20:03] Why wouldn't you just apply that to how you lead your teachers?

[00:20:06] My clients have this difficult conversations problem in other contexts, like with their clients. I've got, one is a college admissions guy, he has it with the parents.

[00:20:16] I've got another one who runs an autism school, has it with everybody. 

[00:20:21] Yes. 

[00:20:22] It comes up all across life really. So it's pretty interesting that you said in your book how effective that it actually is when you learn how to have these conversations and get brave enough to practice those skills.

[00:20:35] Quite a bold promise that you give, which is 95% of difficult people will step up or step off within four weeks. 

[00:20:42] Yeah. 

[00:20:44] That's a big statement. 

[00:20:45] It is a big statement and I have experienced it myself. When I was doing this process myself as a leader, I remember I did the self-deprecating apology. It had been a couple of years where there'd been a misalignment in standards and I didn't know how to change it.

[00:21:01] I'd had a go at different times. I'd learn by this stage not to do a big all in. So I was looking for different options, right? And so I remember I went there. And finally, said, look I think I haven't done as well as I could have with setting expectations. That's on me. What I wanna do is for us to really get clear on those. So we worked on that together. She took it really well, and I said, and I'm going to promise that I'm gonna pluck up the courage that if I see something, I'm not gonna chicken it out.

[00:21:26] I'm gonna have a little conversation. Great. Sure, a week later, you're hoping maybe I won't have to do any of that. And I remember I saw something in the corner of my eye and it was one of those moments where I knew it was the time to go and have a conversation.

[00:21:36] It was exactly what we talked about. This person wasn't the most difficult person, but just some poor standards. And I started walking towards her and then I turned around and I was like, I just can't do this today. 

[00:21:51] So awkward. And then I remembered the time that I had actually let it all build up and it had turned into this massive thing that was just horrendous.

[00:22:00] And that's what fueled me to go, no, I've been there before. I'm never going there again. I turned back around and I went and had the conversation with her and we had a quick chat about it and I said I was gonna bring this up. I just noticed that and had the chat. And you know what, she didn't love it.

[00:22:15] She wasn't like, thank you, but I did pluck up the courage and I kept going back there and having these little conversations. And sure enough, three weeks after it started, she pulled me aside and said, Hey, just letting you know I've got this other opportunity that I'm really excited about. And that was when I really knew I was onto something because 

[00:22:34] we were able to maintain a friendship as well. And it was because I'd set it up in the way I had, it was really clear that it wasn't a personal thing for her. She then moved into another area and we were able to maintain relationship and I was like, oh my goodness! Then I've had it time after time.

[00:22:50] I had a client here in Australia and I was working with him and once again, similar thing, he'd had probably a year under the bridge of some little blowups here and there, and it just wasn't working. And when he did this process with one of his staff, I can't remember how long it was, but it was around four weeks actually.

[00:23:06] Finished up and took a job somewhere else but did so amicably. So it doesn't always end like that. But, I think we underestimate how much human beings dislike being rejected. And I know that sounds horrible and we're not wanting to reject them, but when we have those confrontational little conversations, if we set it up in a way that they know that we promised them we'd do this and that, I'll give you one more story just at another angle how this works.

[00:23:33] I had another client and he had an employee and she had moved industries. She had gone from engineering and she was in this small business now and they were friends, right? Which also always complicates things. Anyway, it had been going on for about a year and she just wasn't cutting it in this role.

[00:23:50] And they were talking to me. He said, Jonno I'm thinking of just telling her it's not working and I'm like, okay, let's look at the options. He ended up going back after we chatted through it, and he actually took my advice. They had a conversation, he said, Hey, this is where we're going as a small business. We think it's probably gonna go from this to this. And what we talked about with him is I said, do you really think she could do it?

[00:24:12] And he said, I do. And so I said okay, let's use that because that's true. So he said to her, look, we believe you can do this and we will have your back. I promise you, I will help you, but I'll also challenge you and push you to go there to the next level. He basically gave her a chance, but clarified where they were going.

[00:24:32] He got a phone call the next morning and she said, I slept on it. And you know what I realized, coming from engineering, it was a lot slower paced and this small business pace, that's only gonna increase.

[00:24:41] I actually think I need to move back to engineering. That doesn't happen every time, but it does happen a lot because all they needed to do was have the initial conversation and because the relationship they had with her and because they were honestly laying it out in a way that wasn't for the past year, it hasn't been working, but was actually starting from scratch.

[00:24:58] They were able to help facilitate her staying on for a while longer, and then doing a transition with someone taking over a role and helping her find a role in engineering, which she did. And there are stories where people change their behavior, which is ultimately the best result. Where

[00:25:12] the cadence, the continuing consistent little conversations is like a stone in the shoe and they just have to get rid of it, and so their behavior changes. It's those little moments that really do lead to behavior change. Whereas the big performance management, what it tends to create is instead of any behavior change or movement, it creates super defensiveness and everyone gets even more stuck in there and stubborn in their positioning.

[00:25:37] Yeah. Once you get into defensiveness and conflict, it's all over really. 

[00:25:41] Oh, absolutely. And to tell you the truth, I get so defensive and that's why I know I 

[00:25:48] Humans get so defensive. 

[00:25:51] I think of my conflict with my wife and with friends and I think, man, I'm great at facilitating it for other people, but it's still, when I'm on either end of it, it's really hard.

[00:25:59] It's managing your triggers and family of origin and that's why I think we need more leaders who create a process and environment that allows someone to lean into that and not be triggered and then decide, for themselves, am I gonna change my behavior?

[00:26:13] Or maybe this isn't for me because I just can't. Yeah. I'm just not really loving the conversations about the stuff that I've thought I was getting away with, or didn't matter that much. It obviously does, and maybe this isn't the place for me. So it's, you're right. All humans get defensive.

[00:26:29] So we've gotta be very careful with how we do these conversations. 

[00:26:32] Especially in a work role where ego's a little bit loud, for all concerned. Everybody wants to be right, don't they? 

[00:26:42] Yeah. And this is one thing , I'm not sure people talk about. As a boss, I don't wanna be their friend. For me as a boss, it's really clear. I draw a line between being one of them and friendship and I think we all wanna work in a place, work should be, and this is what I say to leaders, you could create the first relationship a person has had in their life.

[00:27:02] Where there's healthy boundaries, like you said, clear expectations, robust discussions that aren't personal or character assassination. What a gift. You give that to someone in their twenties who's never had that in their life. You model it and you show them how to do it. And that's generational change.

[00:27:18] Maybe that person is able to then change their future family that they are part of to where they do that better. We need more workplaces where people love turning up to work. Not enough, utopia kind of way. But in a no, I get to go and do something really important with people who will challenge me and I challenge them.

[00:27:38] I think we all really want that. And it's leaders who can create that is gold. 

[00:27:44] Yeah. And I think we are whole people at work. We don't leave our personal lives at home. That's actually impossible. So acknowledging that and even when you're a leader and you've got the power and you've got the capacity to support what's ever happening in their home life 

[00:28:00] Yeah.

[00:28:01] As well. I think that works wonders because then there is a lot of trust. 

[00:28:06] If somebody's going through a divorce you cut them a bit of slack on that. 

[00:28:10] Yes. 

[00:28:11] or you give them the timeout to go to the lawyer. Or if they got a young family,

[00:28:15] you cut them slack on that, you acknowledge that they have different needs. 

[00:28:19] My experience of it is absolutely amazing for team building and productivity and having everybody pulling in the same direction. 

[00:28:27] I agree. And one of my favorite stories from my podcast was a school principal who shared how she had a person in middle management at the school.

[00:28:37] And there was a role that came up on the executive team and this woman had been doing an amazing job in middle management . It was just the right time where the opportunity came up to step on the executive team and maybe a head of senior school or something.

[00:28:48] But at the same time she got a diagnosis of cancer. Everyone was wondering what was she gonna do in terms of applying and what does this mean for her? And this principal shared that, meeting with the business manager, legally there's things you shouldn't or can't consider, but it's also in your mind Anyway, so this lady decided to apply and

[00:29:09] they said, you know what? She's the best for the job. We are gonna hire her. And not only is it the right thing to do, but it's just the best thing to do. So they gave her the job and three months in to doing amazing day-to-day work in this job, her cancer got to the point where she had to stop working.

[00:29:26] And so like logistically, now they have to put someone into the role. Three months after that very sadly, she actually passed away. So this school principal goes on with her job and then turns up to this lady's funeral. And after the funeral's finished, she's standing there and she sees this lady who passed away, her husband walking towards her.

[00:29:49] And she thinks, oh, how did I manage her in those last months? Worried that she's about to be berated . Anyway he said, you know what? I just wanted to seek you out and say that those three months that she spent in that role were some of the best months of her life.

[00:30:04] She loved it so much. It was actually a really important part of that last year of her life. So thank you. What I love about that story that just had me, I didn't know what to say. I was speechless when she shared it, but I think that's what a workplace should be.

[00:30:19] Yes, that's the extreme, but it's actually, if we will put people first and invest in them and actually believe in them and assume the best of them, then it really is the best thing for business. And I thought it was just so special how that school principal put the business side of it aside and went, no, this is the right thing to do.

[00:30:40] And how that played out I think is what great leadership is all about. 

[00:30:44] That's the direction I head in with my clients in burnout is I believe in them more than anyone else ever has. 

[00:30:51] Usually they haven't got that belief in themselves or the people around them don't have it. The people at work don't have it.

[00:30:56] I just think it's absolutely a, an irreducible need. 

[00:31:01] To have people see the good in us to be able to connect with us on that level. 

[00:31:05] That's definitely a hidden superpower part that I don't really talk too much about in the book, but I think if you can be that kind of leader who does literally see the best in people.

[00:31:17] And it's that thing of how can your people know that you legitimately have their back? If they can know that and you can be that kind of leader and have the challenging conversations then I think we all want a leader like that.

[00:31:30] We all want to work in a team like that. 

[00:31:32] Yeah. 

[00:31:32] I had a leader like that. He was exemplary. A hundred percent always had my back 

[00:31:39] and stepped in to help me if anything went wrong instead of blaming me, which he could have and which most other bosses might have. Yeah. 

[00:31:46] Yeah. 

[00:31:47] and I remember him forever.

[00:31:48] He's such a standout. 

[00:31:50] Yeah. 

[00:31:51] Yeah. You know what we are running outta time , I can't believe it's flown by. I probably could ask you a lot more questions, but read the book people. I'm gonna put it in the show notes for the podcast. Tell them again! 

[00:32:03] Oh, the book? Yeah. Step up or Step Out,

[00:32:06] How to Deal with Difficult People, even if You Hate Conflict. If you look up my name, Jonno white, there aren't many. It's a very Australian thing, shortened, Jonathan to Jonno. And yeah, it's on Amazon and Audible, if you like, audiobooks like I do. 

[00:32:18] Yeah, I put it through Descript, which is a video AI thing.

[00:32:23] And it's spelled your name, JOHN-O

[00:32:25] in Australia kids we spell it J-O-N-N-O.

[00:32:33] I do get a lot of people think people thinking particularly overseas, that my name is John O'White, I've had that a lot. Oh yeah. Did you say it's John O'White? Now it's thrown me, so I feel funny saying my name sometimes.

[00:32:47] It's been lovely chatting with you today. Have you got any final words you'd like to share? Anything you wanted to mention? 

[00:32:52] You know what the only thing I'd share for leaders who are listening, I don't remember where it comes from, but I love this idea that as a leader there will be things you say that you can't even remember,

[00:33:03] that the people who hear them will never forget. And that can be good or bad. Like you said being aware of that, the responsibility of that and and trying to be that kind of leader, like you said, that we, all, that gets mentioned in 20 years when someone else is on a podcast and says, you know what, let me tell you about that leader I had who is exemplary.

[00:33:21] Be that kind of leader to the best of your ability. 

[00:33:24] they could be exemplary because of their strategy and skills, but mostly 'cause of their personal touch. That's why you're gonna remember 

[00:33:31] Yeah. A hundred percent. I agree. 

[00:33:33] Yeah. Alright. Thank you so much for joining us, Jonno. It really has been lovely to speak with you and I think people should definitely read that book 'cause it's quite concise, but it's very pithy.

[00:33:45] The method will make sense once you start reading it. So don't forget to look for those links in the show notes and people, if you have enjoyed today's show, I would love you to share it with your friends. And rate or review the podcast 'cause that's how we reach out to help more people who suffer in burnout.

[00:34:02] And if you yourself are in burnout, come and talk to me about how to recover. Book an appointment at dexrandall.com. Thank you so much for listening.