Burnout Recovery

S022 - Goli Kalkhoran on quitting your job

September 14, 2023 Dex Randall, Goli Kalkhoran
Burnout Recovery
S022 - Goli Kalkhoran on quitting your job
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Since quitting her own job as a lawyer, Goli Kalkhoran has transitioned to coaching and now hosts the "Lessons from a Quitter" podcast. She helps de-stigmatize quitting and coaches mostly women who are thinking of transitioning their careers to build a more intentional, fulfilling life.

I invited Goli on the show because so many clients who come to me in burnout are DYING to quit their jobs. In fact, some have already left. It's worth pausing and deciding your next move with confidence and assurance, for the best possible reasons. Leaving a job simply to escape the suffering of burnout often isn't effective. In working with clients, I often suggest they recover from burnout first, then move.

Listen in for Goli's wisdom on how to make the next move successful for you.

Show Notes
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Dex (00:00:09) - Hi, everyone. My name is Dex Randall and this is the Burnout to Leadership podcast, where I teach professional men to recover from burnout and get back to passion and reward at work. Hello, my friends. This is Dex. And today I am delighted to welcome our special guest, Goli Kalkhoran, who's a master certified life coach, former attorney, and helps unfulfilled professionals create a career and life they actually like. Applause I can hear it. She's the host of the Lessons from a Quitter podcast, where she uses her platform to destigmatize quitting, provide resources and inspiration to individuals looking to pivot in their established careers, challenges people to exceed their own expectations, cheers again and guide them through the initial steps of starting over in order to build a more intentional and fulfilling life. Sounds excellent. Sign me up. Hi Goli. How are you today?

Goli (00:01:10) - Hi, Dax. I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.

Dex (00:01:13) - I'm so delighted that you're here. It's taken me a long time to get you on the show.

Goli (00:01:19) - Well, we made it happen and I'm excited.

Dex (00:01:20) - To make it happen. And to my listeners, I'm especially happy that Goli is on the show today because not only is she an exceptional coach who trained at the same school I did, but she's also my friend and running mate of some time and to be honest, we think a little bit alike. I can really relate to her lawyer brain. We're kind of in tune on that one.

Goli (00:01:43) - We definitely are.

Dex (00:01:45) - Yeah. And. If you go and listen to her Lessons from a Quitter podcast, I think you're going to hear a lot of her work in there. And. Because so many clients who come to me are really dying to quit their jobs or change careers or do something different. I thought that this was going to be a really good topic to bring for you. And also because Goli works mostly with women. So if that's you and you're ready to quit your job, go and visit her. Yeah. So let's begin here. Let's. What do you think, that people who come to you,

Dex (00:02:23) - What mostly is their problem or do they think their problem is?

Goli (00:02:29) - Yeah, I think most I think we do very similar work, Dex. I think maybe from a slightly different angles and maybe the severity is slightly different, but I think that most people are simply exhausted and they don't know exactly why they're exhausted. So what they think when they come to me is that they have demanding jobs and there's too many deadlines and they never have time for themselves. And they're always working and they're always thinking about work and they're working on weekends. And, you know, it's almost as if a lot of people we all kind of put our heads down, do a lot of really hard work, get to some place. And at some point we lift our head up and we think it shouldn't be like this. It wasn't meant to be like this, right? Like there's there should be something more for my life. And so I get a lot of people in that stage where it's like I've worked so hard to get to where I am.

Goli (00:03:18) - But I know with deep down that this isn't right. I don't want to live like this forever and I don't know what to do. And I feel very stuck. And so I don't know. Do I quit my career or do I change my career? Do I change my job? Do I fix something else? And I think a lot of people are in, you know, in this place where it's like, I know something's wrong, but I don't know what is wrong exactly. And I just and I'm almost hoping that maybe quitting will help. Like, they think like, well, if I just go to another job, then maybe I don't have to deal with this boss and I won't have to deal with these deadlines. So surely that must be better. And so that's sort of where they come to me at. And I think a lot of what we work on is actually figuring out like, no, but what really is the problem? Before we jump, let's figure out like what it is that is the actual problem and what we want so that we're not just jumping from thing to thing.

Goli (00:04:06) - We're really intentional and clear about like, if I'm going to leave, what is the thing I'm after? What would fulfill me? What is the growth that I want Not And and so I help them really make more intentional choices and relieve a lot of the exhaustion and burnout and stress that they have while they're trying to figure out what that next move is.

Dex (00:04:30) - Yeah, I bet you and I do. Pretty much.

Goli (00:04:31) - Yeah.

Dex (00:04:32) - Similar work in a lot of respects, but so when they come to you and they're kind of not really sure and they're exhausted. And they express their difficulties to you. Do you see it in the same way that they do? Do you kind of know?

Goli (00:04:46) - No. And I think, you know, I mean, obviously and I'm sure the people that listen to this podcast because of the way that you teach mindset work, like from my own experience and my own shift from having gone quitting being a lawyer and, you know, ultimately becoming a life coach. A lot of what I, I can see instantly is that usually the job is just a symptom of a lot of other problems.

Goli (00:05:10) - Right? A lot of other things that have led to exhaustion and led to this burnout and led to the unhappiness and unfulfilled ness. And so not it's not that we don't they don't change their jobs. I do encourage people to go after bigger dreams and bigger lives that a lot of times we've kind of started playing small and safe. But what I typically tend to see very clearly is that it's, you know, a lot of people pleasing and a lot of perfectionism and a lot of imposter syndrome and a lot of, you know, overachieving in order to get validation. And like that is why we're all so exhausted and so burned out and like, because we've been trained and programmed in a society that has demanded our productivity and our hustle all the time. And so we're all running on these hamster wheels trying to prove ourselves. And a lot of what I help people do when we, you know, when they first come to me is really slow down to see like what the actual problem is. And that's done exactly where they're at.

Goli (00:06:08) - Like before they quit. It's kind of like, where am like, where is it the job? And we do these audits where it's like, where is it really the job? Like, yes, maybe I don't like sitting behind a desk by myself for ten hours a day. Like I'm a very outgoing person and I want to be with other people. So maybe a job where I'm in an Excel spreadsheet all day is not going to be the job that I'm going to have the most fun in, Right? Or maybe, you know, the deadlines that they have or I'm a night shift nurse and I don't want to work through the night. Okay? That's the job where we have to sort of figure out, like no matter how much I manage my mind, it's not going to be something I want to do. And then where am I adding to my own misery? Where am I, you know, having these really perfectionist standards that if I ever make a mistake or if I ever do something that's not, you know, I don't get the pat on the head where I'm kind of just racking myself over the coals and beating myself up all day.

Goli (00:06:59) - And where am I saying yes? Constantly, even though I have more than my fair share of work and I'm doing other people's work now, and where am I doing all of these things where I can't turn off my computer at the end of the night and I'm still sitting here at 11:00 at night. Like those are things that are in my control. And so when I can look at why am I doing these things, what am I afraid of? You know, what was the like? What is the message that I've been given that is keeping me doing this? Once we see that, then we can start working on kind of undoing that. And so I do a lot of work with people. Like I help people see that first before we ever really look at, you know, should we quit the job and go to something else.

Dex (00:07:37) - So the audit to some extent is separating the external factors from the internal.

Goli (00:07:42) - Yes, exactly.

Dex (00:07:45) - Yeah, I can get that. So. What do you think then, that people who are ready to quit

Dex (00:07:52) - really need the most. Is it the same for each person or is it different to each person?

Goli (00:07:59) - No, I think it's different for each person. But I do think that when you say like people that are ready to quit, for me, the way that I see it and the people that come to me in the way that I move them through kind of my stages is I actually think. I categorize people that are ready to quit with people that have done the internal work first, that can manage their mind, where they're sort of at, where they can see like, okay, I can advocate for myself, I can set boundaries, I can say, No, I can, I have other hobbies, I have more personal time. I don't I can do less. I can do all of these things. And I still, like I said, like the external factors is just not it doesn't fulfill me. I want more growth. I want more challenges. I want to try something new. I want more creativity, whatever.

Goli (00:08:45) - Those are the people that I put in the camp of like, okay, we're now ready to quit the career and go after because we're going after it for the right reasons. We're going after a new career because we want something more. We want a bigger life. We want to make more money. We want to have more impact. We want more fulfillment. And I'm not going because I'm running away from these things where it's like, Oh, I don't want to have this difficult conversation with my boss. So I'm just going to hope that I go to another job and that boss is nicer. You know, I'm not going to like hope. It's not a strategy for me here, right? So it's like we're going to decide. And so I think when they're ready, it's like each person has slightly different needs. But I will say that the again, it comes it always comes back to mindset. It always comes back to kind of managing their mind because I find that the biggest even from my people that are so ready and I've done all the work and have everything in place, there's a lot of fear about change.

Goli (00:09:35) - There's a lot of fear about starting something new, about failing uncertainty. And so a lot of what they sort of need in that in that stage is a little bit of a push, like getting themselves to do something even when it's scary and a little bit of learning how to manage those fears in order to like go after the life that they want, the biggest life that they can have.

Dex (00:09:59) - Wow, that's so interesting to push, because when I asked you that question, I was thinking in the back of my mind is probably the thing they don't need is a push. And you just said, oh, no, they.

Goli (00:10:08) - Need a push at that stage. But this is what I say is because it happens much later, right? It's not like people are coming. And I'm like, okay, month one, we're going to quit. We're all going to go in and put in our resignation, right? And so we actually go very slowly. And I have like a comprehensive quit plan where it's like they map out their finances.

Goli (00:10:26) - They map out like why they want to quit. They map out their dreams, you know, their skills, the opportunities, what they're going after. So it's a lot of people that have like spent a lot of time thinking about what they want and how they can get it. And, you know. What it is they they want to go after. But what I and so what I find is that like, people can and sometimes that might take them a year, might take them two years. It might take them a long time to get there to get to this point. But when they get there, what I find is that a lot of people still and one of the reasons I like doing these plans is because then you can see, like in writing, this is what I would, let's say my finances, this is what I need to be able to quit. And then they get that like they save the amount of money they have, their runway, they do all this stuff and they still don't want to do it right.

Goli (00:11:14) - And it's still because it's like, What if I regret this? What if I fail at this? What if I do it and I don't make as much money? And so that becomes like more of, okay, like, I want to do this thing. I've already looked at all of the pitfalls, all the obstacles, how I would overcome them, what strategies I would use to be able to like deal with any mishap. And I'm still just scared. So, like, then I, I need a little bit of, like, pushing myself to feel that fear and just do it like it's not going to go away. Of course you're going to be scared to quit. Of course you're going to be scared to change a career. Right. And so it's like knowing that that fear is going to be there, but like getting myself to do it, even if I'm afraid, I think certain people need that pushing. But like you said, I think everyone's different. So I'm very mindful of like, who is just not ready right now to do it yet and is like and we're working on them to get themselves to a place and who is sort of just wants that permission like wants somebody to be like, it's okay for you to go after this life.

Dex (00:12:12) - Well, that's quite an interesting perspective for me because I'm listening. And of course my clientele is pretty much men. And yours is. Yeah. And I think that the. Landscape and the and the thought process around that is a little bit different. Totally. Between those two demographics, because I find quite often men come to me when they've already switched jobs quite often, and then that hasn't worked very well.

Goli (00:12:37) - Yeah.

Dex (00:12:40) - And I think for them, it's quite for men. It's quite. The challenge with changing jobs is I'm the breadwinner.

Goli (00:12:47) - Yeah.

Dex (00:12:48) - And it may be that for women as well, there are definitely men to think not about themselves.

Goli (00:12:54) - Yeah, no, I mean, there absolutely is a difference because there's a difference in socialization. So for women is. Women tend to be much more risk averse. I have found, like the people that I work with and I have. I have men in my membership as well. And I do see that for women it's much harder to take any risk.

Goli (00:13:15) - And for women it's harder to the idea of it's not even maybe around the money, but just the idea of failing at something is so all consuming. And it's like it's the worst thing that could ever happen. So they don't want to try anything unless they know they're going to 100% knock it out of the park. Whereas they think men have a little bit more, they have more confidence in themselves to be able to figure things out and try things and fail. And like not everyone, but I think they're just they're more willing to take that risk. You're right. I do think that the breadwinner thing is much more in men. But I think for women, I mean, it just depends on the financial situation. There are a lot of women who can't quit unless they can replace their salary as well. And so that becomes a factor when they're deciding to switch, which is a factor for a lot of people. And that's okay. But. Yeah, I definitely have noticed a difference between the men and women in my program.

Dex (00:14:11) - Yeah, it must be quite interesting holding a group with. Yeah. Men and women in it.

Goli (00:14:18) - Yeah. I mean, I think that there is more similarities than there are differences, right? I think there's more thought processes that are the same. And I think that it's fascinating sometimes and I'm sure, you know, coaching in these big memberships in like scholars that you where you coach too is where you see like part of the magic of that is being able to see people with different thoughts because it shows you that it's just thoughts because you don't have those thoughts. So you're like, Wait, why would she think that? Or why would this person think that? And that helps you sort of get a little bit of distance from your own thoughts. Other thoughts? It's like, well, if this person is thinking something that's like, I would never even think that thought or I think something very different, I think you can still be helpful. Like it's very helpful to see people that do have the same thoughts because then you use that same coaching.

Goli (00:15:05) - You're like, Oh yeah, what the coach is saying relates entirely to me. But I have always found, like when somebody says something that's diametrically different to what I believe, it's always like in coaching, I'm like, Huh, I would never have that thought about that, right? And that helps me like realize that it's none of this is just true, right? It's just the sentences in our brain that dictate what we do.

Dex (00:15:28) - Or Oh yeah, I have that thought, but I'd never really noticed it.

Goli (00:15:31) - Yeah, exactly that to 100%.

Dex (00:15:35) - Yeah. So when you are working with people then do they usually end up quitting?

Goli (00:15:41) - I would say no. The vast majority don't. I mean, I don't know. I'm trying to think of what the percentage is because we have a large number of people in the group. Um. I would say that the vast majority don't, because I think a lot of people, when they learn how to manage their mind and manage their burnout and manage their exhaustion and stuff, they actually quite like where they are.

Goli (00:16:02) - Like, I think a lot of people find a lot more. Fulfillment in the careers that they have. They feel more in control. They are able to navigate maybe jobs, a better job in that same field or a better like, you know, go after promotions that maybe before they never thought they could get or they didn't give themselves kind of even the opportunity to think about. And so a lot more starts becoming available. Like before it was almost like quitting is like this escape. Like I don't want to feel all of this pain, so I'm just going to try to find another job that makes me feel better. And I think when we work on like just getting rid of the pain and getting rid of and helping them deal with a lot of the negative emotion, it helps open up a world that I think maybe they didn't see was there. And so I find a lot of people, um, end up staying or staying for the time being. Um, what I have found is that, like a lot of people then decide when they have a little bit, they have more time and they have more energy, they start thinking about maybe like a side hustle or a side hobby somewhere to like, bring out some creativity.

Goli (00:17:02) - And so we have a lot of people doing that. Um, but there's a good percentage of people that do end up quitting that really know that. Like it's just this field is not something that where they have any more growth or where they really feel lit up. And so I would say it's like a but even that, I mean, I'm trying to think like I would probably say 30, 40% maybe would quit by the end, but the majority of people probably don't.

Dex (00:17:28) - Yeah, that's interesting. I got people in both camps as well. Yeah, I think it's because when they recover from burnout. They've got so much agency that they can choose to stay because they've made something better of it or choose to go because they'd like something better and different. I think it's about that choice comes from a place of developing a great deal of self efficacy and also totally changing your relationship with your boss or whoever it is. The person at work that you're not getting is if you can change that dynamic. So I teach people to change it within themselves, as I'm sure you do, rather than needing the other person to change change.

Dex (00:18:07) - I think that makes a really big difference to a lot of people about what it even wanted. Huge scale.

Goli (00:18:13) - Yeah, absolutely. Because again, it's like if you had thought that that this person is someone that you can't stand to be around and that they're the worst, you know, and what happens is like, you know, where your your focus goes, your energy grows like or something like that. It's like wherever you're focusing, the energy on that gets bigger and bigger. And I've seen I used to do this when I was in the in the when I was a lawyer. It's like when you focus on something that like even just annoys you, let's say something small and like you keep focusing on it, it gets to the point where it's like you want to murder the person. Like even if it's something really, you know, the way they chew or something. But you're just so focused on it every time that it starts becoming this big deal. And I, I remember when I was at a public defender and I felt like this with my boss and.

Goli (00:18:58) - It was just really petty things. But I thought he was a micromanager. Fine. But like, I complained so much to my coworkers. And then I would go home and I would complain about it to my husband, and then I would. On this, I would start dreading driving into work because I was like, Oh, I know he's going to be doing it, and I would be looking out for it. And as soon as he did something to somebody else, I would be like, you know, all pissed off about it. And of course it got to the point where I was like, I cannot stand to be around this person because I was just focusing on that aspect of it and nothing else. Like not all the other great things that he did as a boss. And he was fine. He was honestly wasn't like he wasn't the best boss, but he wasn't the worst. And it was just, you know, my own focus on this on on this one problem. And for so many people that do this and make it seem like, no, there's no way.

Goli (00:19:42) - Like, you know, you hear these terms, everybody's toxic now, like my toxic boss and this toxic work environment. And then when you show them, like how you you personally have agency in control and how you think about this and how you relate to them, so many people start realizing like, yeah, it's kind of annoying, but it's not that big of a deal. Like if I don't let it get to me, if it doesn't crawl under my skin every day and I kind of move on, he's actually like pretty easy to deal with or she's not, you know, that is unbearable as I thought it was. And so I think you're absolutely right. It's like then people start realizing, well, if this isn't as big of a deal as I thought it was, then maybe I can stay here. Maybe there's a lot more I can do if I just don't need this person to be a different way.

Dex (00:20:25) - Mm. It's. It's. Perhaps not surprising that you and I think quite similarly and a lot of things I mean, really what we what I think we have is a whole ton more agency than we thought we had about nearly everything.

Goli (00:20:43) - I completely agree.

Dex (00:20:45) - Yeah. And we just don't see. We've stopped seeing our power. Yeah. Yeah. And particularly for women. I think that's a wonderful thing to re-establish. It is for men huge, but I think even more so for women who kind of there's a little bit self apology going on in the first place. Yeah. And a lot of cases and.

Goli (00:21:04) - That's the thing is, I mean, women because women for you know all of history and up until like only a couple of decades ago just didn't have agency literally you know, under the law, like you just were never given agency. And so it's like you didn't have agency to pick a career you wanted to do or open up a bank account or have a credit card or anything. And so those things get passed down. You know, whether it's I mean, there's now even studies that it gets passed out in your DNA. But like, you know, just socially from our mothers, grandmothers and whatnot, it's like women have the patriarchy has just socialized us to believe that not only like we don't have agency, but that other people know better and that other that it's our job to, like, defer.

Goli (00:21:44) - You know, it's like whatever you want to eat, wherever you want to go and like, we want to be easy breezy and we want to be low maintenance. And we've been told that those are really good things. And so I couldn't agree more. I think that why I love this work so much and yes, why I, I while I work in like the sphere of career, this impacts every aspect of people's lives and why I want people to come into it, especially women, is. Not just of course, I want people to be happy in their jobs because that's like a third of your life. And when you're miserable all day, every day, it's just not a way to live. But it's also because, like, when you come in, you're burned out because you can't say no or you can't. You have this impossible standard. You have those things at home, too. If you don't have agency at work, you don't have agency at home, right? Or with your friends or anywhere.

Goli (00:22:32) - It's like we've all been programmed to kind of. Give up that agency or delegate it or give it to other people. And we think it's easier. And when you start realizing, like I have a say in this, I get to decide what I want to do and it's okay for me to say no and I don't need to apologize and I'm allowed to take up space and I'm allowed to put my own needs first. And I'm allowed to just like things because I like them. It's a revolutionary. It truly is like seeing women take back their own lives and give up these insane standards. Whether that's, you know, I do a lot of work with mothers. And so it's like, yes, balancing motherhood and careers is impossible, but just just the standards for mothers is insane. And so helping them kind of see past that and giving up all the shoulds and giving up every, you know, having to juggle 4 million balls every day is life affirming. It's life changing. And seeing them really step into that and decide what they want and push back and say no is the coolest job I've, you know, I've ever gotten to have.

Goli (00:23:39) - And I love it.

Dex (00:23:40) - Yeah. I would like to point out that from my perspective as well, the patriarchy concept is oppressive for nearly everybody.

Goli (00:23:50) - Oh, 100%.

Dex (00:23:51) - Women. But I think it's also very oppressive for men and people who aren't either men or women. I think it's.

Goli (00:23:58) - 100%.

Dex (00:24:00) - But it's I think I'm absolutely.

Goli (00:24:03) - Screws all of us. Right? It's like nobody wins truly under the I mean if you fall within certain categories you get some privileges. Right? If you're like a cisgendered white male like you likely are getting, you're getting more privilege than other people. But it also comes at a cost. Men absolutely suffer. I mean, it's like you said, like your whole role is to be a breadwinner. You're not allowed to have emotions other than anger. You're not you know, there's just so many things that you've been like your humanity has sort of been stamped out from when you're a child of like, men. Boys don't cry and you don't whatever. And you don't get to this whole range of who you are is kind of taken away from you because it is you are told to be like the patriarchy just puts you in a box.

Goli (00:24:42) - All of us, like women, do this, men do this. There is no other gender, right? Like they it creates all these things that make us all suffer instead of what actual reality is. And so I think it's it, you know, behooves all of us to try to tear it down because I think nobody wins under this.

Dex (00:25:00) - Conversely I think everybody wins with coaching because with coaching you just get to be who on earth you already are on the inside. You get to be more of that.

Goli (00:25:09) - Oh, I couldn't agree more. 100%. I think that I truly believe that, like coaching is just the tool to help you unlearn all of the BBS that you were taught so that you can get back to like what was there? What was already there.

Dex (00:25:25) - And I'm curious when you're talking. If you know, what was the link between you transitioning from law into coaching? Yeah, that's a great.

Goli (00:25:37) - Great question. Yeah, I mean, I am my own. I think, you know.

Goli (00:25:40) - You know, as a coach, I feel like we end up just coaching the older version of ourselves, right? Like the person that we were. So I was the quintessential, like type A personality, straight-A student that like, put my head down and never questioned anything. And then I decided I was going to be a lawyer when I was a child and literally never questioned it. Went to all through school, studied for an insane amount of years, went to a top ten law school. I was got into, you know, I was working at a top ten law firm. I was, quote unquote successful. And I was absolutely miserable. And I became a lawyer. And I was like, What the hell is this? And what did I sign up for myself for? And my whole identity was wrapped around it. And I was like, Well, I'm the person that was either always going to law school or was in law school or was, you know, as a successful lawyer now.

Goli (00:26:25) - And so I truly thought like. This is it for me. Like I have to just suck it up. And I did for about seven, eight years. I just. Worked and I jumped from job to job thinking, well, maybe it's this job and maybe if I go into that job, I'll like it more. And I became more and more unhappy until I had my son in 2014. And I just decided, like, I can't do this anymore. I won't work these hours and not see my child ever. Like, I just I can't do it. And so I quit without knowing what I was going to do. And I had no I felt so lost. I felt so ashamed. I felt like such a failure. And it took me I was in a really dark place that first year of like, what is what do I tell people? You know, I had I grappled so much with my identity. Like, if I'm not a lawyer, then what am I? And I hadn't I wish I had these tools.

Goli (00:27:14) - And this is why I made my podcast, because I wish I had somebody that was telling me like, it's okay. Like you're allowed to want something else and you're allowed to change your mind. And I sort of stumbled along. I ended up. Wanting to try entrepreneurship. I started another business. I opened up a photo booth business and that actually did really well. I learned how to do hardware and software and I taught myself. I just really threw myself into entrepreneurship for about. Three years. I did that two. Two and a half, three years. And then that process forced me to do a lot of mindset work. Like if I was going to crawl out of this like Shame cave, I started reading a lot of self-help and I started listening to podcasts and I started really shifting my mindset and I found the life coach school, and that really started helping me think differently. And I started wanting to have this conversation about quitting and like starting over and doing something different. And I had every one of my lawyer friends was miserable, every single one without fail.

Goli (00:28:12) - There was nobody that liked their job. And I was like, How can this be? How are we just all accepting this that like, we all hate our jobs, we all complain about it, everyone's miserable, everyone's on antidepressants. And that's just the way life's going to be, you know? And so I started my podcast before I ever wanted to be a coach, before I had any idea that I would do life coaching. In fact, I remember saying, I'll never be a coach. And it was I just wanted to talk about I wanted to interview people who had quit their careers and started something else. So the first 100 episodes of my podcast are just interviews of people who have had quit one career that was successful and went a completely different way. And I was doing it selfishly, like I wanted to know how they did it because I hadn't really made that transition yet. Like I had a job, you know, a business. But it was like, how did you create these really cool things? And so over those 100 episodes, which was over a year, I just got more into this stuff and I decided I wanted to, you know, get my certification.

Goli (00:29:09) - And people kept asking me to help them. And so, you know, the rest is history. I decided to become certified, and then I became a coach. And I've been doing this ever since.

Dex (00:29:22) - You're coming across as a very smart cookie here. If you had your if you had your life over, if you did this whole thing again, would you make the same career decisions, do you think?

Goli (00:29:31) - Oh, that's such a good question. That's such a hard one for me, because on the one hand, of course, I wouldn't put myself through like the pain, like I just didn't like anything about the law. So would I spend $100,000 on a degree that I'm not going to use and, you know, go through decades of like, schooling and work? No, I don't know. I probably wouldn't. But one of the things that I sort of made a decision on a couple of years ago was that, like, I just won't regret anything. I refuse to waste my life thinking that, like, I should have done something different because I can't do it different.

Goli (00:30:03) - It's over. Like you don't get any do overs, right? And so I realized that it was a really because I had spent a lot of mental energy regretting things like I should have done it this way and, you know, dreaming up scenarios. And so I really just took this place of like, it is what it is like. These are my mistakes. I'll learn from them. It'll be that's what creates my journey in my life. That's what will lead me to the next step. And truly, like where I'm at now. No, because, like, it led me to this. Like, this is what allowed me to understand what people in my membership are going through so deeply because I get, you know, what it's like to be an immigrant whose family moved here to give her better, you know, opportunities and to now say like, Oh, mom and dad, I don't want to be a lawyer anymore. Like, that's not an easy conversation. Like, I do know what it's like to have a job where I made multiple six figures and then be like, I want to leave and try to find something else that replaces it.

Goli (00:30:54) - Like I know what it's like to be quote unquote successful when everyone's like, Oh my God, you're a lawyer. Like, how could you leave that? You know, I know the identity piece. I know those things so intimately well, that it's easier for me to help the doctor that comes that doesn't want to be a doctor anymore, or the lawyer or the engineer or the professor or whoever it is. Um. So. And I love what I do now. So I don't know. I don't know if I would do anything different.

Dex (00:31:19) - Hmm. Interesting. And I would have a similar answer. Like I've had a lot adventures and misadventures in my life and I loved my software. My goodness. It was such a good fit for me until it wasn't. I don't think if I'd have had a life that was different than the one I actually had with all its disasters, I would be able to do the work that I can do now. Totally. My work so much.

Goli (00:31:44) - I love that.

Goli (00:31:45) - I know. And I think that this is the thing. Like going back with regret. I think one of the lies of regret and stuff is that like, if I had done something then like it different than it would have turned out better, right? But we don't know what else. If I had picked another profession, which like life coaching, was a thing when I was picking my college major. Yeah. You know, that led to a whole nother world of hurt. You know, it's like this lie that, like, Oh, it would have all worked out so much better. No, it could have not. So I agree. I'm like, I like the way this turned out. I love what I do now. And so if it required that hardship to get here, then I would do it again.

Dex (00:32:24) - That'd be it. Yeah. That brought to me an example from my past. I took a couple of years out when I was 22 because I never had a gap year and I think I have one after after uni.

Dex (00:32:34) - I've been working for a while and I took two years off and I went to work with horses and it was spectacular. And the whole of my life. Since then, I've wished I'd stayed in that job, particularly as the guy that I was working for went on to win the Olympics Gold medal.

Goli (00:32:53) - Wow.

Dex (00:32:54) - I just thought, Wow, that would have been a life, wouldn't it? Yeah, but there's no point thinking that way. I mean, I had the experience. Never mind. Comes. Goes.

Goli (00:33:02) - Yeah, exactly. And you can't know where that was going to lead, but yeah.

Dex (00:33:07) - Yeah. I'm happy that I can have a depth of experience that apparently many people don't have that informs me to be able to support other people in ways they can't support themselves because they just haven't had that.

Goli (00:33:21) - Absolutely. Absolutely.

Dex (00:33:24) - Changing the topic slightly because I was quite interested in your perspective on this. What are you thinking about Quiet Quitting?

Goli (00:33:33) - Oh, love all these terms they come up with.

Goli (00:33:36) - I don't think that it's actually a thing. I mean, I think it's a thing, but I. I don't mind it. And I'll tell you, I don't. I don't like that it's termed quiet quitting because I think that it's another thing by corporate America to like blame employees because I think what quiet quitting really means is like, I'm going to do what you're paying me to do, and that's it. Like we've so been indoctrinated to go above and beyond and be a team player and, you know, do more than our fair share. Like you take on other people's work. You do all this stuff and like, you know, back in the day, this idea of like, put your head down and people will notice and then you'll get a raise. And we all know it's Yes. And they don't. And you just work yourself into a ground into the ground. And so I loved quiet quitting when everyone's like, I'm not going to go above and beyond. I'm going to do what you tell me to do.

Goli (00:34:24) - I'm going to come in, I'm going to do my tasks, and then I'm going to leave. And I'm not going to like volunteer for your panel, you know, like diversity committee. And I'm not going to do all this extra stuff that you're trying to get me to do. Um, that's what a transactional relationship is. You pay me and I do what I'm supposed to do and that should be it. And so I'm all for that. I'm for employees really understanding that, like, they have been taken advantage of by corporate America or by corporations and wanting to get them to like be a team player and a family member, even though they'll cut you as soon as they have to. Right. Um, I just don't like that it's called that because I think like, again, it's just blaming the employee, like as if they're quitting, they're not quitting anything. They're just doing their job and that's it.

Dex (00:35:09) - I agree with you. And I think if people have in their own organizations, people who they think are quiet quitting, it is a blame thing.

Dex (00:35:16) - But quitting is really a symptom of failure of leadership. Totally. So somebody else is somebody else.

Goli (00:35:24) - It's a it's that it is it's a failure of leadership and culture. But and it's also just I think the problem is that. Business and employers. It's just not the way it ever was. Like maybe in a time where you really did stay at a job for 40 years and there was a pension and you could feel like a family there, like, you know, that was a different situation. I think nowadays and and what the landscape is now is like there is. There was like an inherent sickness, I think, in corporate America because of capitalism that that there is no way to overcome where it's like the bottom line is just what is most important. And so if you're not needed, you will be cut. But obviously they're going to try to get more out of you because that helps them. So like they have to hire less people or whatnot. So I just think that those incentives for employers creates a situation where employees are the ones that tend to get taken advantage of.

Goli (00:36:26) - And so, yes, I think leaders can absolutely help you, like feel more appreciated and more involved and in on the mission and get you to do better work. But I don't know. I just think it's a symptom of what like what the system is like now. And I don't think that there's really any changing that.

Dex (00:36:46) - Oh, I'm not sure I can agree with you on that one. Before our call today article with another coach and we're talking about. Doing some work on changing corporate culture because both of us are very, very strong on heart centered leadership.

Goli (00:37:02) - Yeah. Think you can if you have a like a specific business? I don't mean to say like especially a smaller business or if there's more like you can have, we can start changing the culture where we actually care about employees, where we do things from a place of like wanting our employees to, you know, be mentally well and have the time off they need and like put and not have the bottom line be the only thing we think about or the first thing we think about.

Goli (00:37:30) - I just I think that that's on an like yes. One the companies here and there can do it. I just don't know if the whole of the system is set up for that.

Dex (00:37:45) - Errantly. Perhaps not, but it can change. And that's why I've got such a focus on heart centered leadership, because a lot of my clients are very powerful people who have a big sphere of influence in their organizations. And so when I teach them the kind of leadership that empowers people around them. Number one, it's more financially successful for the for the organization. I agree. Any other model. But number two, it's rewarding for everybody involved in it and enjoyable. And I think that once I teach people how to leadership, then they will naturally propagate that through their organizations. And I think that that cultural change. I'm I'm hanging on to the hope that that is what's happening now. I hope you're right. Slow way and we'll keep building momentum and I sure as heck want to be a part of that for sure.

Goli (00:38:32) - And I think that's a worthy thing to be want to be a part of. And I and I sure hope that you are correct that it does move more in that direction. I do see like there are more like as millennials are the ones that are becoming more in the manager era roles, there tends to be more. Heart centered leadership. I just have some of my own doubts.

Dex (00:38:58) - Fair enough. But when you can make a financial revenue or profit imperative statistics attached to that, it becomes more compelling for more people. Yes, very true. Anyhow, we pretty much had a time. What are you up to these days? Is anything you're doing that you'd like to tell us about?

Goli (00:39:16) - Yes, I yeah, I have a membership. Like I have a monthly membership that's called the Quitter Club. And it's really where we do all of this work. And it depends, regardless of what stage you're at, of wanting to quit, it's where we have master classes and weekly coaching and a lot of video lessons that will walk you kind of through the stages of how to create that career that you love.

Goli (00:39:43) - And so I'm, I'm heavily focused on that. And I'm in there, you know, doing a lot of coaching both in the community and on the coaching calls. Um, depending on when this is airing, I think we're opening up doors. Doors are usually closed, but we're opening up doors on September 19th. So if you want more information about the career club, you can go to lessons from a quitter slash club. Um, but yeah, I've just I think I'm doing a class on the 19th called The Secret to Building a career You Love. So you if it's before the 19th, you guys are more than welcome to come join. If it's after, then just go to that Twitter club. Lessons from a twitter.com slash career club and you can get all the information of what's going on there.

Dex (00:40:27) - And you've got a freebie running as well, I think, to help people out.

Goli (00:40:30) - Yeah, I have a quiz that I sort of came up with because I think for a lot of people, um, they are in this forever question of like, should I stay or should I go? Should I quit? Am I ready to quit? Is it time? And so I created a quiz that kind of helps you figure out what stage you're in and what you should focus on for the next 3 to 6 months so that you're not overwhelming yourself trying to figure out the whole plan.

Goli (00:40:51) - And so you can take that quiz and kind of get a guide, a guide that has the step by steps of like what to focus on next at lessons from a twitter.com slash quiz and let me know what you think of it. Let me know if you have any questions and I'm happy to. Like you can just email me back and I'm happy to help. Regardless of what stage you're in.

Dex (00:41:14) - Anything else you'd like to add that I didn't ask you today?

Goli (00:41:18) - Um, no, I think we covered everything. I think that everybody is in such good hands with you. And I know that your work has been so impactful for so many people. So many people that I know. And I'm so grateful for the work that you do. And I think for everyone listening, I know it's like sometimes it's really hard to. It's not accept, but really grasps how much. Is just your mindset and your thoughts. Not that like there aren't other things happening in the world. Obviously there are, but the only thing you ever control is how you react to it.

Goli (00:41:52) - Like those things are going to happen. Life is going to come at you fast. There's going to be a lot of good and bad, and the biggest skill you can ever learn is learning how to manage, how you react to those things because that's all you will ever control and it becomes like a superpower. So I think everything Dex is teaching you is. Going to be life changing. And so you should do this work as much as you can because it will help you no matter what stage you're in or what career you're in or what you do next.

Dex (00:42:23) - And likewise working with you. Thank you so much for being here today. It's been a real pleasure to chat with you.

Goli (00:42:29) - Thank you so much. It's been my it's been an honor to be on your podcast and I'm so excited. And we have to get together and chat soon again.

Dex (00:42:38) - I really hope so. I really hope so. And for everybody who once got these links, I'm going to put all of those links she's mentioned in the show notes and any other ones I can lay my hands on.

Dex (00:42:48) - And if you've enjoyed today's show, I would really love you to rate and review the podcast because this helps us to reach more people who are suffering in burnout. And if you yourself are going out, please listen for the link at the end. You must come and talk to me about how to recover quickly and sustainably and get back to your best performance leadership and most of all, enjoyment inside work and help. If you're in burnout and ready to recover, come and join my burnout to leadership program. You can book in to talk with me a burnout or just tell me what's bugging you and let's make a plan to fix it.


Exhaustion, burnout and quitting
Identifying the actual problem
Separating external from internal factors
Fear of change
Needing a push to decide what to do
Gender differences in career change
The choice to stay or go after burnout
The journey of quitting and starting over
Quiet quitting and redefining work relationships
The failure of leadership
Heart-centered leadership
The quitter club and career coaching