Dex (00:00:09) - Hi everyone. My name's Dex Randall, and this is the Burnout to Leadership Podcast where I teach professional men to recover from burnout and get back to passion and reward at work. Hello

Dex (00:00:23) - And welcome to today's episode, my friend. I have special guest Robin Keyser with me today, who I'm also teaming up with on a mental health summit in May, 2023, which is next month if you're listening to this episode as it's published. And you can find details about that at shadow side leadership summit.com. All the details are in the show notes, but really listen on today cause we're gonna talk a little bit about that, um, in this, uh, little chat today. And it's gonna be a real crack of the summit, especially for people who experience mental health challenges and potentially perhaps the stigma that can come with that, and also those who care for others with mental health challenges. So we'll talk about that in a weir. But first of all, uh, let me tell you a little bit about Robin and say hello. Robin is a fellow coach, uh, for entrepreneur leaders who are ready to take their self discovery to a whole new level. She supports them to become their greatest ally instead of their biggest block. And Robin can teach you to speak the language of the unconscious mind in order to overcome any limitations, to create radical self-love, unconditional joy, and huge success through the art of identity coaching. So welcome to the Burnout Leadership podcast. Robin.

Robin (00:01:41) - Thank you, Dex. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dex (00:01:44) - Delighted to speak with you. And do you have anything to add to that introduction ahead of me asking you some little questions?

Rovbin (00:01:51) - No, not necessarily. You did a beautiful job, <laugh>.

Dex (00:01:56) - Well, it's good to see you here. So let's start with my, you know, often my first question is, you know, what does burnout mean to you? And maybe have you had a burnout experience yourself?

Robin (00:02:07) - Yeah, definitely. Um, so for me, um, my, what burnout means to me is obviously related to my own personal experience. So just speaking for myself, the way that I identified burnout, um, is when I stopped functioning pretty much. So I kind of think of it as like, you know, like there's like the yellow zone and then there's like, or like the green zone and then the yellow zone, and then there's like the red zone. And so like burnout to me is like when you're in the red zone and, and when you hit the red zone, it's like, okay, this has gone beyond just like stress. And this has moved into the phase of burnout where my ability to function, my capacity to keep my head above water is severely compromised.

Dex (00:02:51) - That's interesting cuz I think about it that way as well. And I think about mental health a little bit in that way is when we stop, when we stop functioning at our normal or reasonable levels. So let's ask you the converse question then. What does mental health or mental fitness mean to you?

Robin (00:03:09) - Yeah, I think it's very, I think you're right. I think it's very similar. Like I kind of also think of mental health as like that spectrum. And I think when I think about mental health, I think it's interesting that when we talk about mental health, the word health is right there in there. And yet so many people think about mental illness <laugh>, and that's what they associate it with because I think that's what we talk about so much. And, and I, I think it's well intended and even I do this like right, it's like with the summit and everything that we're talking about, but it's like so often it gets brought up in the framework of talking about a problem. And so I think a lot of people subconsciously adopt this framework when we talk about mental health, that we're thinking about the challenges or the struggles or the hardships or the, you know, when we're in the trenches of, you know, depression or anger or even like, you know, people that, um, are going, you know, have bipolar or anxiety, you know, generalized anxiety disorder or things like that.

Robin (00:04:04) - But I think mental health, like that's where you're, you're kind of talking about that yellow zone or the red zone and it's like, wait a minute, but you're, you're leaving out the green zone. Like that's part of mental health too, right? The joy and connection and like love and all that stuff is also part of mental health. So I think about mental health, um, what, when I think about that, what it means to me is, is to, um, to be a mentally healthy or mentally fit person, it doesn't mean that you never have a breakdown, if you will, or a, or a challenge or a struggle. That's all part of it. And it's also includes that capacity and that ability to, to really have that process of self discovery to, I actually think my mental health journey over the years, mental and emotional health, it's all tied together.

Robin (00:04:52) - Those have been some of my greatest guides, if you will, um, towards allowing me to discover the truth of who I really am. And so I think there was really so much beauty in those experiences and I still think that it is, even when I experience anxiety or fear or anger or whatever it is that I'm going through or depression, um, I see those things now as my really as my guides and my some of my greatest, um, allies in my life because it is what helps me not only to develop empathy for others, but it also helps me develop self-compassion and to learn how to truly love myself. Not just in the emotional sense of having kindness or affection towards myself, but the act of love. It, it has taught me how to learn. You know, I know now when I'm, when I'm starting to have depression, just like with identifying burnout, I can identify depression so much earlier now because my self-awareness has grown as going through this.

Robin (00:05:53) - So I notice when the laundry's not getting done or the dishes are piling up or those things where I am like haven't, you know, taken a shower in a couple days, like just, you know, or whatever it might be I did today. But it's also okay cuz this is through zoom so you guys are safe. But it's like, right, I start to notice those little things that now I'm like, ooh, that's kind of a little, you know, bell for me that's just indicating where, you know, where might I be, um, a little bit low on my energy or you know, what's happening. And so those, and it might be different for everyone, but for me, those are sometimes things that can tip me off to notice that I might be starting to experience signs and symptoms of depression and so I can then begin to drop into my body and spend some time with myself and start to give myself that care and that nurturing. So that's how I think of mental health is it's an active, um, process of learning and self-discovery and, um, it all belongs.

Dex (00:06:52) - It's so interesting you mentioned that about mental health as well, that we only talk about it when something's gone wrong. And I think it's very stigmatized, even if somebody mentions the two words mental and health together, it's like uhoh danger zone,

Robin (00:07:04) - Right? Even though it's health, it's like, wait, but health is a good thing. Why are we, why are we scared of it? Why are we stigmatizing it? Like, but it's like <laugh>, it's funny.

Dex (00:07:12) - Mind you, it's a little bit the same as physical fitness. We only talk about that in the context of not being fit enough, don't we? Yeah. It's all about deficiency. We're very focused on deficiency. Yes. So you, you didn't mention anything in yourself or any, any burnout story that you may have had, but whatever experiences you've had, which you might have felt, um, that you, some of which you've just described, which might have felt, put you below the level you'd like to be in your mental fitness. How did you feel about that and you know, how did your approach getting support from

Dex (00:07:48) - Yeah, yeah. So one of, one of my most profound experiences of burnout, um, and probably the most significant one for me was when I was working as a critical care flight paramedic in Alaska. And I had spent years already in the 9 1 1 system as a 9 1 1 paramedic. And, um, in working towards that goal, and you know, for anyone that's worked in the medical field, um, you know, or specifically in e m s, it can be a me grinder, you know, and it's long hours, 12 hour shifts. And in the system that I was working in prior to going up to, into critical care medicine, into flight, I mean, they would, we never got off on time. So I mean, we would end up working, you know, 14 hour days and then get home and just crash and sleep and then get up at, you know, I worked night shift, so I would, my shift was six to six, but I sometimes wouldn't get off till eight in the morning.

Robin (00:08:41) - And then I would go home and, um, sometimes not eat. Or if I did eat, it was fast food, you know, on my way home. Cause I didn't have time to like cook or eat good food, take care of myself. And so I would just go home and I would crash and then I would just do it again. And years of that obviously was starting to already take a toll on my body and my physical health and probably my mental and emotional health as well. But I was young, you know, and I was like, I got it, I got it, I can do this, you know, and I could like power through. And then I went, you know, I was just studying and working and the performance and I was so trying to really, I didn't realize that I was really working to earn my worth, but in a lot of ways I was.

Robin (00:09:20) - But again, that was unconscious. It wasn't in my consciousness. And so, um, I just thought I was working hard and doing a good job and right. And then I went to flight medicine. And when I ended up, um, in this, uh, other, this job as a critical care paramedic, um, I found myself in a situation where there was a lot of hazing happening and harassment and emotional abuse and things like that. And, and, um, and I didn't expect that. And it really was the straw that kind of broke the camel's back because it was like, I, you know, all of that already. I was already kind of primed for, for a break <laugh>. Um, and then when that, when that added on top of it, what I realized is, um, it just brought out this, all these parts of of me that I did not ever deal with, you know?

Robin (00:10:15) - And so, um, it was just sort of this perfect storm of things. And I, um, I wasn't sleeping at night be, I was scared to open the door. I, I worked in a, in a flight hangar, so I was two weeks on, two weeks off. So I would be at this job for two weeks at a time, clocked in the whole time. And you lived there. And so when anyone would come and knock on the door, I would like have to turn on my recorder on my phone before I would answer it. Like I was just in constant fear. And it was, I started bingeing eating again, like badly. Um, I was drinking heavily on my days off smoking, um, anything I could do to try and keep my head above water. And not surprisingly, um, none of that was working <laugh> in fact, it was just making it worse.

Robin (00:10:52) - And so I just found myself in this spiral. Um, I had gained, you know, probably 30 pounds that year. I was over 200 pounds was the heaviest I'd ever been. I felt horrible. So a lot, just a lot of things altogether. And it, and I just, I got to the point where it, it had just gotten so bad that I, I really reached a point of surrender where I, I realized like I literally, I have to, I have to surrender to this and, and accept that I am not coping. Like I'm not, this is not working and I need help. So that was how I identified it. Um, not early as I referred to earlier, right? I had to let myself real. I mean, unfortunately, I, I got myself to that point where I just couldn't cope anymore. And, and so that emergency situation is what led me to getting help.

Robin (00:11:38) - And so I ended up leaving the situation and, um, I just was like, I need to get out of here. So I did change my circumstance, thankfully <laugh> and, um, and I put myself in a safer environment first and foremost. And then I started seeking support and I was like, I didn't necessarily know where to begin cuz I knew there was so many things that needed cleaned up and addressed, and I didn't know how to deal with my feelings, my emotion, the thought all, there was just so much. And I didn't even realize I hadn't found coaching yet, or thought work or any of it. So I, I didn't even know where to begin. So where I chose to begin was with my physical body and my health. And I, um, enrolled in a program, a year long program to help me begin, um, learning how to nurture myself back to health. And it was a integrative nutrition and and wellness program that incorporated coaching. And that was really my first experience with, with coaching and it profoundly changed my life. So,

Dex (00:12:37) - Wow, that's quite a big story. It's very harrowing. Even listening to that, I find many people are in a situation of emo emotional abuse or bullying or exploitation or harassment is like layers upon layers upon layers of suffering. Other people are suffering alongside you. They're offloading some of their suffering onto you. Everybody's sitting capacity at once by the sound of it. But it's often it happens to people who are givers. And I find that, yeah, that's one of the facets of human nature that is kind of shocking to me sometimes when I hear about it.

Robin (00:13:16) - Yeah, yeah. And at the time I didn't really, you know, it's like you hear platitudes and oh, it's more about them than you, but it's like, it doesn't feel like that in the moment. And to me, that was what, again, I didn't realize I didn't have the perspective and I just had, there was just so much that I didn't know. And at the time, what I, I mean, I tr I found myself the reason I stayed for so long. I stayed there for over a year in that situation, way longer than I, in hindsight would, I mean, I wouldn't any more now I'm like, I, I wouldn't last a month probably, right? But it's like at the time I had this because I had this foundational core belief that all the, all the abuse and the suffering and the, the neglect and the rejection in my life like that I had experienced.

Robin (00:14:02) - So that experience was triggering all these old wounds that I had not healed. And so because of that, I just, I still believe that for some, that it must be my fault somehow, or, or even if it wasn't my fault, I didn't necess, but I just, there was something where I was like, may, if I can just be better, if I can just adjust myself, then maybe this would all go away. And so I found myself in that codependency cycle of trying to do, do better people please, you know, whatever I could do. And, and of course just none of that was working. And so I just was my, when I left that I c I went into that job as a, I mean, I was a very good paramedic, um, really exceptional in fact. And, um, and I left just feeling utterly shattered. Like my confidence was just, I was, I felt like a shell of a human. And it what a bummer.

Dex (00:15:00) - What a bummer is an understatement, I would say. When, how long ago was that Robin?

Robin (00:15:06) - Uh, that was probably about seven years ago now. And that was actually the first, um, that was, that was when I found Brooke Castillo. I didn't like right towards the end of that, I, I didn't know of the program or coaching enough to, to enroll in it or anything, but I will never forget laying on the floor of that airplane hangar just in tears, like, just feeling utterly at my end. And my stepdad actually sent me, um, a pod, like a link to her podcast, and she was talking about managing your emotions. And it was the first time in my life that I ever was like, wait a minute, what? Like, there's a possibility to like that I could have agency over this. Like, that may, maybe it's the circumstances in me, like the way that I was thinking about it, that this was for sure happening because of who I was like, and I believe that so thoroughly. And that, that, just listening to what she was saying, and this was probably very early when she probably first started her podcast now I'm guessing. Um, but it was, yeah, it was the beginning for sure of some shifts in my life. Yeah.

Dex (00:16:19) - Hmm. You and I probably found Brook around the same time, and I found her as well when I, after my burnout, when I'd had a heart attack and I was lying on the sofa trying to recover, that's when I found her. And I thought the idea of agency was pretty startling. And I think for those of us who end up in burnout, we have almost no sensation of agency at that point. It's our, our, our ability to connect with any agency we might have had as diminished and diminished and diminished and finally gone. And there's this sort of despairing hopelessness that we think all this bad stuff is happening to us and we're powerless to do anything about it. And I, I think that's why I'm so happy to work with people who are burnt out and reverse that polarity and bring people back to full power and full agency. And I'm getting the impression that that's kind of where you are going with your work as well. We're probably somewhat on a parallel track. So here's my next question to you, because I see so much leadership in you that you've clearly developed very intentionally in the support of others over the years. So tell us, tell us a little bit about that. What, what leadership capacity you have or what rep, what represents that? Who have you grown into as a leader?

Robin (00:17:34) - Hmm. You know, it's interesting. That is a word that I have, um, oftentimes had a difficult, um, difficulty identifying with because, and I think this is one the things that was so fun about doing this, this project that we're working on, because I think I fell prey just like many people to these constructs of what all these things mean, right? Mental health, leadership, you know, mental fit, whatever. And it's like, and so I think I always had this idea of leadership where I disconnected myself from it because I was like, well, these are the people that are leaders, right? I mean, let's, I'm looking at, you know, the, the leaders in the industry are the ones that have this, you know, power and influence and money and a big following and all these external measures of success. And you know, and I think, and I think I, I felt prey to this idea that that was what, that was what it meant to be a leader.

Robin (00:18:32) - And, and so I don't think I ever allowed myself to sell, to identify that way because it felt like an identity, like a, like a, what's the word? Um, like discordance or something. Um, that's not the word I was looking for, but you know what I mean, right? Like, it didn't, it didn't feel like something that I identified with. But the more that I have, um, really been doing this work, what I realized, the, I'll tell you the story. The first time that I started to, to step into leadership was when I moved to Portland, Oregon. And I, after I left that job and I came down here and I started wanting to get out into the community to kind of meet people and build connections, which is something that I has have always, I've had a story around my inability to do that. And I thought, well, I'm gonna work on that.

Robin (00:19:19) - And so I'm gonna get out into the community and start trying to meet people. And so I started going to meetups, right? And they have this thing called meetup.com and you can go to these meetup groups and, and social events and things like that. And so esp so I started looking at all these queer meetup groups and I would go to these meetup events. And what I started to notice was that all of these groups, all of these meetup groups specifically within the queer community, I was trying to connect and, and build queer connections within the community here. And they were all like around, all centered around alcohol, like bars and happy hours and like, things like that. And I was just like, and I just started to notice this theme and I'm like, I'm fine to do that. I'm not a big drink. Like I, I quit drinking for a long time and I still really, I don't drink really, and I don't enjoy it.

Robin (00:20:08) - Um, but I'm fine to go to an event here or there, but I'm like, why does that have to be everything that we're doing? And I was like, can't we like go for a hike or have a game night or just do something else? Maybe a little more edifying not to be judgey, cuz it, it wasn't coming from that kind of a sense, but I just wanted something different and, and it wasn't there. So I had the thought and I was like, well, I'll just start it. I'll just do it. And so I started hosting my own events and hosting my own meetups. And so began the journey of me stepping into creating the thing that I wanted to have in my life be being the person, right? Instead of waiting for somebody else to hand it to me. I just went and created it and then I did it again and again and again.

Robin (00:20:52) - And then I started hosting bigger events and fundraisers for, you know, uh, the Equi Institute that supports trans youth and different things like that. And all of a sudden everyone started talking about me as a leader in the community. And I was like, when did that happen? And I think it was just that initiative, right? To, I think for me, when I think about leadership, I think about a leader as someone who's willing to have a vision for what they want and who notices what's missing. And that might be just the courage to say what needs to be said, the courage to stand out, the courage to speak the truth when nobody else is doing it, right? That is an active leadership in my opinion. So I think it can look a lot of different ways. Does that answer the question <laugh>?

Dex (00:21:38) - It does. And I love to hear your unique perspective on this, and I really respect the, the way that you have challenged yourself and also now you are in a very gentle leadership way, challenging other people to join you in your quest. And in particular, like, so you set up this mental health summit, maybe you wanna tell us a little bit about that and how that came about?

Robin (00:22:03) - Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, so similar idea, right? Like I, well, as my identity began growing and shifting in my life, as I began stretching myself and going after new things, I had some, um, some things start to happen. And, um, I specifically when I actually, when I started working for the, the life coach school, ironically enough, that felt very triggering for me. And I didn't expect that something that I had been wanting to do for a while. Um, I had been a part of, you know, the school's community for a long time, not just listening to the podcast, but um, you know, being a part of what used to be self-coaching scholars, what's now called Get Coached, um, as a client. And I had been, you know, just doing this work for so long, I had built relationships with some of these coaches, uh, over the two or three years.

Robin (00:22:58) - You know, you coach someone there in the program for long enough, you get to know each other. And so I felt kind of a, a connection and I felt like it, you know, was a place that I wanted to be. And so when I got hired to work for the school, it really felt odd to me why that would be such a triggering thing. But I will tell you, it was profoundly stressful to my body, to my nervous system for some reason. And I couldn't put my finger on it. I couldn't put my finger on what it was, but I started bingeing eating again, which I haven't done in about six years. And I started, I just noticed myself feeling very dysregulated. It was very odd. I couldn't, I couldn't pinpoint it. Again, talking about the, the conscious mind versus the unconscious mind, it didn't make rational sense to me.

Robin (00:23:47) - I'm like, this isn't that. Like, I don't understand. And then when I went to Miami for work hard, play hard, um, <laugh>, I was whoa, utterly dysregulated even further. It was loud. There was a ton of people I hadn't really slept. I had already been like kind of going through this for a few weeks, so I just, I already felt just kind of thin. I hadn't, you know, I just, my bandwidth wasn't entirely there. And so when I arrived there, it just kind of was the straw that broke the camel's back for me again. It was. And when I got off that yacht and finally came back to my hotel room, it was quiet, calm, cool, dark. I was like, yes. My whole body, my nervous system kind of relaxed for a minute. I was like, oh. And when I slipped into my bed and just laid there in the quiet, I could feel my body wanting to cry.

Robin (00:24:44) - So I let, I was like, that's fine. And, but it was interesting Dex because I had never had this experience before, but in that moment it felt odd because whatever it was like this, I felt like kind of just very neutral, kind of curious. I'm like, what's happening here? And it felt like that part of me that was wanting to cry, like it felt very young, very like little. And so I kind of was like, it's okay. And I just sort of checked in and I, and I was like, I wonder like, who is that in there? Because it doesn't feel like this version of me. It was like it and it felt like this little kid. And, and when I checked in, it was indeed, um, I just got this sense of this, that 10 year old version of me that was like, kind of peeking around the corner, like, is it safe to come out?

Robin (00:25:33) - You know? And I, and I just kind of talked to her and I was like, it's okay. Like, what's going on in front? And, and it was interesting cause as soon as I identified that, I was like, oh, like you're the one that's been wreaking all this havoc these last few weeks. And so, and I just invited her to come out and, and let you know, let her cry. I was like, it's okay. Whatever you need to feel, you can feel. And I, and I just asked her, what's going on for you? And I just very clearly heard this like voice in my head that just said, I don't belong. And immediately it all made sense. I was like, oh, that's what's happening here. Right? Like, I didn't, and so that experience is what made me, um, begin to wonder if other people also go through this, right?

Robin (00:26:20) - Sometimes it's like, why is it that I'm experiencing success and growth and new opportunities and new connections? Wouldn't you think that would be a, a good thing? These are things that I've been wanting for so long. My dreams are coming true. Why is it that I'm having this total dysregulation in my nervous system? Because there's an identity disco congruence and I needed to go back and nurture and connect with that part of myself because she didn't feel like she belonged here as a leader, as a coach working for the life coach school. Like those are the best coaches in the world in my opinion. Like, do you really belong there? And so that is what made me want to have these conversations.

Dex (00:27:04) - What an amazing event to, to have spawned all of the things, all of the work that you're doing now. So I'm in, I'm interested then what you think. So you, this inner voice started to emerge for you and you started to recognize that. How do you feel that your kind of inner consciousness or your body experience has taught you things that your kind of mental or analytical capacity has not?

Robin (00:27:36) - Yeah, I think that, I actually think that story is a perfect example of that, right? Because here I was for probably four or five, six weeks prior to that event, experiencing the dysregulation, the sense of fear, like the, the, the binge eating that started happening again, it was very strange and I could not make conscious sense of what was happening. It didn't make sense to me intellectually, right? If I was just trying to cognitively coach my way through that, I, I didn't, I was not able to uncover it. But when I turned my brain off, right, turn off the analyzer <laugh> and just allow myself to let everything be quiet and just kind of sink into my body. And I just noticing, cuz that was the first thing I noticed is like my body, I just felt my body wanting to cry. That was all I knew.

Robin (00:28:28) - And I didn't know why necessarily. I just thought, well, maybe I'm tired, I'm overwhelmed. That event, it was all loud and it felt like, you know, all these people on, in this fancy yacht. Like, I don't know, it just seemed like a lot. But that would've been all that I really had conscious awareness of. But when I allowed myself to really just connect with my body for a minute and, and feel that and let that come up, it was, that was to me where I was able to kind of uncover what that unconscious belief system was like, what that unconscious voice was. I couldn't hear it in my head because my head was, it was in thinking mode, right?

Dex (00:29:13) - Interesting. That, that was kind of a revelation to you that, that your organism, if you like, was communicating with you in that way. And that would've been my experience as well. My, my unconscious mind is fairly communicative when I'm listening and probably would've had a parallel, if not, you know, identical experience being on a boat in that circumstance. So I can really relate to what I'm hearing. And I have also that track of listening to my inner self and my historic self and seeing what's going on in there at the level of my subconscious memories. So I think this is a really powerful experience and if anybody is listening thinking, oh that sounds a bit like me, then good. Because really it's helpful for you to know you're not the only person having those types of experiences. And also that when we listen to our inner selves, it really can be very freeing. We can find out what's going on for ourselves and we can manage that, we can work with it, we can, uh, if you like, heal some of the difficulties that we are experiencing once we start tuning in. There's nothing wrong with that. This is your subconscious, this is the body trying to heal when it's giving us this information. When it's having a little moment of distress, this is the body going, oh, perhaps it's time to heal from that now. So I think of those moments as opportunities. What do you think about that?

Robin (00:30:39) - Yeah, a hundred percent. I agree with you Dex. It's like I, and that's why I think of when we talk about, um, you know, like the shadow side, right? This, we're doing this shadow side leadership summit and that's part of why, um, to me, right? And, and I think, you know, we talked about that how this, this can have different connotations for everybody. But for me, I think of these things, right? The, the anxiety, the stress, all the, even the binge eating right, like that, that's a part of me, you know, when, and so when I talk about shadow side, you know what the, what is the shadow side for people that don't know what that is, what it means to me is simply the parts of myself that I often would rather hide, right? The parts of myself that I might be tempted to feel shame around because of society.

Robin (00:31:24) - And they've told me that that's dark or wrong or whatever, but the thing to me about it that's so beautiful, even like the binge eating, I actually even through this experience was so profoundly grateful for it because what I see it as is, like you said Dex, I see it as my body's messenger, right? Because especially in this society, right? Anywhere, any country that speaks English especially right <laugh>, it's like we tend to be like, we just get busy and we work and we have to achieve. I think, you know, in America there are other cultures that are like this too, but it's like, I just think we have such a culture of like working and achieving and like that is such a sign of success. And maybe that's just me, but anyway, regardless of the cause of it, I see people do that a lot.

Robin (00:32:13) - And so I think we disconnect from our bodies, we disconnect from ourselves, we get in our heads and we start to think and plan and how can I succeed? And I, how can I do all this stuff? And it's like, um, when I'm doing that, my body will let me know, right? And that might look like depression, it might look like anxiety. I think of it as like it's those messengers, it's my emotional guidance system telling me that I'm off course and not in a bad way, but just I would invite, they're inviting me to come back home to myself to the truth of who I really am. And so that's how I see it. Or it's like on the highway, you know how they have those ridges and if you go off this way, it starts to go boo and it's kind of like uncomfortable and it kind of bumps you a little bit. That's how I relate to and experience these things is I actually think they're there as important, um, guardrails to help keep me coming back home to the truth of who I really am and my, my essence and my heart and helping me to live more in alignment with that.

Dex (00:33:22) - Yeah, I would agree. I think as well though, when we talk about shadow side, so this is from the y kind of school of psychology, it's about the shadow side of ourselves that we are choosing to hide. But I think that the shadow side has been subsumed by society is meaning the piece of us that that society wants us to hide. And I think it's therefore in terms of talking about and working with mental health shadow side is part of the stigma.

Robin (00:33:53) - Yes. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. And I think, um, yeah, shadow side being part of the stigma because it's, and that's like a flipped perspective, right? Like so, which I think is a super important conversation to have. So there's, because in my brain the, like that conversation when you brought that up before, cuz we talked about that before, um, it kind of opened my mind cuz I had never thought of it that way before. And um, the, the way that I had only thought about it was about me wanting to shame it or hide it. And so it was like an invitation for me to no longer do that. But I think what you're talking about when you say it goes beyond that, and I think you're right because it's not just because here's, this is what's interesting is the reason, the only reason that we would ever be tempted to feel shame around any of these parts of ourselves is because someone else at some point told us, that's making me uncomfortable. You should hide it, right? As a child coming into the world until someone else shames you, you wouldn't know to shame yourself, right?

Dex (00:35:07) - Yeah, I would agree. We're kind of running outta time today, so I'd really like, uh, you to tell the listeners a little bit about how they can get to the summit, Robin.

Robin (00:35:15) - Sure. Yeah. So, uh, the summit is just gonna be, uh, the shadow side Leader Summit <laugh>, sorry, the shadow side leadership summit.com, um, is the website. And so if you go to the website, um, there will be a registration link there. You can put your information in sign up and um, you'll get all the information that, that way to join the Facebook group. You'll get the links to where the, all the live presentations and recordings with decks and everyone else is gonna be, um, yeah, so shadow side leadership summit.com and that's where you can register. And then again, all the podcast interviews that we're gonna be doing with all the different presenters, um, that will be happening inside, um, the Identity Factor podcast, um, which is also linked from the website page, so you can find it that way too. And you can start listening to those on May 1st. And there's gonna be a lot of interviews with Dex and all these other coaches coming in talking about, um, talking about their relationship with this stuff. So that, that's gonna be a fun little, um, pretreat for everybody.

Dex (00:36:20) - Marvelous. I'm very much looking forward to the summit. You're gonna find, uh, listeners, all the links to connect with Robin and to the summit will be in the show notes. Um, and good luck with it all Robin, and thank you so much for being on the show today.

Robin (00:36:34) - You're welcome, Dex. Thanks for having me.

Dex (00:36:37) - Thank you to all of you listening in today. If you're experiencing burnout, please come and talk to me. You're gonna book an appointment@dexrandall.com. I'm just gonna listen to what's happening for you and we'll make a plan together to extricate you from burnout and any difficulties you're having there so you can deliver of your best again at work. And, um, by the way, if you do enjoy this podcast, I would really so much love you to rate and review it because that's how other people who are suffering burnout are more easily

Dex (00:37:07) - Connect with the solution.

Dex (00:37:09) - So take it easy, thank you, and I'll talk to you again next.

Dex (00:37:14) - If you are in burnout and ready to recover, come and join my Burnout to Leadership program. You can book in to talk with me@burnout.dexrandall.com. Just tell me what's bugging you and let's make a plan to fix it.