Burnout Recovery

Special 009: Jonathan Friedman on youth mental health

August 25, 2022 Dex Randall
Burnout Recovery
Special 009: Jonathan Friedman on youth mental health
Show Notes Transcript

Jonathan's career with youth mental health counselling set him up for his own venture "The Journal That Talks Back" where young people can access coaching support on-demand.

We talk about the pressures that young people face and how we can best support them.

Find Jonathan at
Web site

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Hi everyone, my name is Dex Randall, and this is the Burnout to Leadership podcast where I teach professional men to recover from burnout and get back to passion and reward at work. So hello, my friends, this is Dex on the Burnout to Leadership podcast and today we have Jonathan Friedman, who is a former child and youth counsellor, who now runs something called The Journal That Talks Back which I'll let him explain to us. It's basically an accessible platform connecting young professionals and post secondary students with certified coaches. And I've invited Jonathan to join us today, partly because symptoms of burnout and chronic anxiety are almost as big a problem amongst young people, college students, young professionals, the Gen Z ers as they offer for those that I often work with more established in their career, so I think for anybody who falls into that bracket or who knows people who fall into that bracket, it's a very interesting area to cover about which Jonathan is our expert. So welcome, Jonathan, to the podcast. It's great to have you here with us today. How're you going? Everything's really, really good. I'm super excited to be here and for you and for the listeners and everybody, so I'm super excited about this show. Excellent, me too. So let's begin here. As you know, I'm interested more in the stress, anxiety, burnout amongst people, and also mental health issues that kind of impinge sometimes, so let's find out a little bit about that. And my first question to you would be, why do you think so many of these young people are struggling with mental health related issues these days? Yeah, that's a great question and a great question to kick it off, Dex. I think and I come from my own experience, I'm sure everybody, even between us living in Australia versus living in Canada, I'm sure everybody around the world comes to mental health from their own unique lens and I'll just speak from my professional experience and also from my experience living in Canada and as someone with an anxiety disorder myself, I think over the past 10, 15 years, there's been a lot more knowledge being shared on things like social media, which is great and bad at the same time on... Like, even a lot of podcasts are talking more about mental health and podcasting is a really, a growing place where people have the opportunity to talk and to listen to ideas, and even in television, I think media has a big role to play here, but also I think that that's opened up the doors for a lot of us to communicate more about what's going on in our heads. It's not just I feel sad, it's I feel sad because or I feel angry because of this and because this happened earlier and because that thing happened earlier, maybe I had a fight with my girlfriend and now a week or two later, it's still lingering in the back and I'm blurting out sentences and a little more irritable and having fights with people, I'm learning to go beyond that initial emotion and have a more complex emotion and communicate that with more people. And I think as even before COVID 19 we're all starting to have these conversations more and more, but I think COVID 19 really opened up the flood gates around this, and it's in an interesting way that I actually think it's a bit of a silver lining where people who before COVID would never talk about their mental health, I feel started to understand what it meant to be isolated and to feel lonely and to have to work four times as hard at work or maybe they lost their jobs and were really struggling to find another spot to get back into work, get back into the groove of things, and we're still feeling the effects of this really, really, for sure today. And I think as a community of people, knowing that everybody's felt that isolation and that pain, I feel like we now have this common ground where we're all able to say,"Hey, yeah, you know what? I do feel really alone today, I do feel really burnt out, I do feel really anxious." And people around us are starting to understand what that means more and more, and we're able to have a big conversation about it. It was a big answer for a short question, but it's a big topic. It is a big topic, and I think it's quite good to have that setting the stage really for what we're talking about because my perception is so you talk about you've had challenges with anxiety, I personally have also had challenges with anxiety, but I've said it's extremely prevalent in society these days in a way that it wasn't 10 or 15 years ago, it seems to have escalated dramatically recently and contributed to burnout. What's your perspective on that? I think there's a few different pieces here, I do think there is a times piece to it, as I was talking about before, I think more people are aware. Obviously, people have been experiencing anxiety for decades and decades and decades, but now we understand that I'm not irritable, I'm feeling anxious, and maybe this thing 15 years ago that I never quite dealt with is what is bothering me now, but what happens, and there's this, as you were talking about even before the we started is there is this weird intersectionality between burnout and anxiety because a lot of people, even people who are aware but maybe haven't had the time or the resources to go back in time and start to deal with that anxiety, there's this build up and there's build up and there's build up, and at the same time as your internal lizard brain is feeling that build up, you're also working a corporate job, and maybe somebody from HR is really getting to you and that's going on and then you go home and your relationship might not be what you want of it at that time, and suddenly there's this blow up event, there's this meltdown, there's this intense, intense struggle. And often that's when we go seek help, is when we experience that crisis, we wait till we're burnt out, we're waiting, we wait until we finally hit that anxiety attack, but really all of are as... Anxiety is a really human emotion, and if we go to get support earlier on, not to say it'll prevent everything, but at least we'll have the tools to manage it, and to talk about it and express what's going on. Yeah, well, I'd really like to find out a bit more about that in a moment, but I'm just curious, right now, when we're talking about anxiety, which I think is so easy to recognize, whether you characterise the people that you come across in your professional environment as burnt out or not, these young people. I would say not only do I think, so... And I'm not... We'll get into what we do a bit later, but the first thing that we do before we start coaching anybody, is we have an intake call to determine whether or not they're a good fit for coaching or I'll refer them to a therapist and... Then we match them with one of our fantastic coaches on our team, and just to get a sense of the character and to make sure it's a good fit, and I get to... I have the privilege of doing all of these intake calls and most of our intake calls are with young professionals. And burnout is almost the second word out of everybody's mouth. It's I'm feeling... I've been really depressed, I'm feeling really burnt out, I'm really struggling at work, I'm burnt out. How long have you been at your job for? Maybe a year, maybe a year, and we're already experiencing burnout and eventually, I don't think age has much to do with anything, but to hear that these 25, 26 year olds are already at that point where it just... It's like it's enough already, you're at that shut down point is really unique, and it's really interesting to start to figure out because this is a new phenomenon. Yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts too on that. It's an interesting one for sure. Yeah, I think it's... I think burnout is very prevalent amongst college students even never mind young professionals, because I think the bar is set so unattainably high about how they think they're gonna need to be in their graduation and in their careers and because anxiety is so prevalent around a lot of aspects of life, the social aspect of life as well as everything else, we're so displaced we're so disconnected in this fundamental supportive way that we would have been pre social media, for example. Yeah. Absolutely. And also... It's just like a perfect storm. Yeah, and then add financial concerns on top of that, I live in Toronto, Canada, which is a hugely expensive urban, big city, and a living wage here would be the equivalent of making around $85,000 $100,000 Canadian, which is probably a little less than an Australian dollar, but it's still very, very, very high. The average wage here is between 55K and 60K, and coming out of college trying to move out for your first time, it's very, almost impossible for a lot of people to do to the point where groups of four or five, six people will go and rent a place and still struggle to make rent even with a good job. Yeah, and it's the same here. And then you guys, I think over there would probably have very big college debts when you come out as well. Oh, yes, absolutely. So let's jump in a little bit to The Journal That Talks Back. Tell us a little bit about that and how that supports your people. Yeah, for sure. So, as Dex mentioned, my past career was as a child and youth counsellor, and I had the privilege of working mostly in my eight year career there working with young adults with a primary diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder and also young children who experience traumatic events like 4 6. And what I got to do was come into homes or come into educational environments, and all of these people would really struggle to use their words to communicate what they were feeling, they might not have had words, or they really struggled to use them, and we use the iPads and other adaptive technologies to sort of teach communication, and it's not always so simple, it's not like you just put an iPad in front of somebody and suddenly words are there, it's a complex teaching thing with a huge team that I've been really fortunate to work with. After about eight years, I personally burnt out, not because of the kids I was working with, but I was working for an organization where our vision just clashed and as an entrepreneurial spirit, when my vision and especially when you're working with kids, it's such a personal thing and you want the best for those kids, and when the organization doesn't see eye to eye in the same way, for me, that was just the end of it. So I joined my step mom's coaching company in actually a marketing capacity, but we always kind of wanted to do a blend of what I learned in youth work with technology and with what she was doing in the executive coaching world. So this was always in the back of our heads. But when COVID hit, we decided that it was just like, we need to do something, we need to do it now. So we did a lot of research, a lot of surveys, a lot of interviews with people much smarter than myself, doctors, lawyers, different professionals in the field, and also college students and other young professionals to hear what they were going through, parents as well. And this idea of experiencing anxiety and burnout and depression it was just so rampant, but the cost of therapy, coaching and counselling is often out of reach for young people, so we figured out that if we made sort of the coaching version of text therapy, which has a lot of amazing support behind it, and infuse it with the power of journaling, we could do something special. So basically, The Journal That Talks Back what we do, as I mentioned, we have an intake call just to make sure that coaching is a right fit. Mental health is a spectrum. Somebody who experiences anxiety might be a good fit for coaching, but they might require therapy too, so we try and help to connect those dots for people. I'm match them with one of our own coaches, we train all of our coaches in house, many of them have been coaching for like near 15, 20 years, and some are a bit younger as well. And then once you're in the service, you track your mood, your sleep, your stress, and you journal, we have prompts where you can go self guided, and every single time you submit a journal with the mood tracking, your coach gets and responds within 24 hours. So there's no longer a need for appointments and needing to wait two weeks or a month to have that connection, if you're... For me, my case was I was going out on dates and then having anxiety attacks, but I'd have to wait three weeks till the next appointment, and meanwhile I'm at the club trying to not... Trying to just be able to have a conversation with someone. And this eliminates the need to wait for that, so that's The Journal That Talks Back. It's a coach in your pocket, which is gonna be our new tag line, I've been saying it more and more recently I think. Yeah, I love it. It sounds like a fantastically accessible idea for people as well, because when I saw the title The Journal That Talks Back, I was quite intrigued about the journal aspect of it, what does that mean for you? Why have you called it the journal? What does that mean? Yeah, so we sort of have two journaling components, we have a micro journal, tracking your mood, sleep and stress, 'cause sometimes when even in a more typical coaching arrangement, you sit down with the coach, they ask you a big question, and you're like, oh, that's a lot. So whenever you have a conversation, even we did today, you said, "How're you going?" it's like, how are you doing, you check in, you see how you're doing, and when you check in with a professional every single day, even beyond all of the meets that you get into with the journal, you always kind of have a baseline for what's going on in somebody's world, and you see when things start to dip and when things are really good. And with the journal, what it allows us to do is access really deep portions of people's thoughts without even... There's no tough part to it necessarily, if somebody's free writing a journal, you might just be like just throwing spaghetti at the wall, you're just writing what happened that day, word vomit, but then your coach reads it and they're like, "Oh damn, you said this, this also happened last time, how are you feeling about this?" Our coaches and lots of coaches are becoming so good at hearing those individual words and connecting the dots, and that's really for us where the magic happens, and with writing, you can do that in a very unique way, so there's benefits to having that conversation that we don't do, but there's benefits to doing it in writing as well. Okay, and what I'm hearing a little bit there, and I think perhaps it could be a bit parallel with the way I coach and the way that your team coaches is in coaching what we're really trying to do is work with today's problems today, and if today's problems occur again tomorrow and we get a pattern then we start dealing with the underlying issues that prompt this kind of situation to recur, but it's to me, there's a contrast between therapy and coaching which is therapy takes the long view and coaching, I think we can resolve problems as they're coming up, so not having to wait for an appointment would really make a big difference for people perhaps with that. Yeah, absolutely. And as I mentioned, and I think you would say the same thing is that we're all part of tools in this big holistic mental wellness tool box, and at one time, coaching might be a really good fit, and at another time therapy might be a really great way to get through some stuff. There's just so many fantastic people who do this work, and for us, I hope there's a thousand more journals that talk back that way everyone can get that support or 100 million more Dex's, not that you can be replaced, but that idea where there's just a lot of people who are there for that support, and people can just access what they need when they need it without having to break the bank. Yeah, to be honest, I'd love to be made redundant because burnout is kind of a pandemic proportions all by itself these days and I think there's an enormously... 58% of Gen Zs and Millennials are feeling burnt out right now, and those are 2020 facts, not even 2022, which is wild. So absolutely. It is wild. And when you're... In your client base, is there a even weight in between the genders? Yeah. We get a bit of everybody. Basically, the way we work mostly is we work with organizations who bring us in for their young professionals, and we tend to get a good diverse bunch to work with, we did just launch in October. So our sample size is not huge. I can't say 60% of women really come to coaching versus 40%, but yeah, we've seen a pretty even distribution across the board. And I believe you were with DEI as well, so you'd be very good however people present. Yeah, absolutely. And what's interesting about The Journal That Talks Back is it's an anonymous forum. If the person on the other end wants to be... You don't have to put a picture, you can just be... I could just be Jay. And then, whenever I write, my coach will read and respond to me, you get to choose how you want to be called. So, taking away that name and that face actually is pretty powerful, it allows people to sort of warm up faster, and from a DEI lens, it allows people to just come into the problem that they really need to work on or get to without having all of the other lenses placed on it so directly. I love that, 'cause that's quite a big barrier sometimes to people asking for help. For sure. If they feel like their identity or their culture or their background is going to take center stage, where they don't really want it to, will attract attention, where they don't really want it to. Yeah, for sure. I'm Jewish, I'm not religious at all. You can see all my piercings over here, but I grew up in a fairly religious environment and that does come up, but I don't really resonate with that part of the world as much as other people. I'm pretty secular, and sometimes I've been in a therapy appointment or in a coaching appointment in the old times, and the thing... It's important, I'll just share that I'm Jewish, but then it becomes such a focal point. It's not something that I necessarily wanted to spend the time to focus on, it just... Therapists, coaches, counsellors, we're people people. We love hearing about people's different cultures and people's different stories, but at the end of the day, you get to show up how you'd like, so that's one of the benefits that we're trying to accomplish. And you referenced some of your own therapy and coaching, what techniques have worked for you in working with your own struggles with anxiety or whatever else? Yeah, absolutely, so I have a fantastic therapist here in Toronto, she's a cognitive behavioral therapist, and at the end of the day, it's just a different way to access the same things that really we do in coaching as well, but this therapist is just so good, so she really helped me access... Really notice what the triggers were for my anxiety so early on. Because when I started to experience anxiety, I literally felt like my skin was burning, we thought I had a hormonal issue, I saw an endocrinologist for a time, and then the endocrinologist looked at me and said, "You know, you could have this really rare disorder or you could just be an anxious dude," and he said, "Go to therapy for a year and then come back and report if you need anything." But my therapist, rather than just looking at the anxiety attack, said,

"Well, what does 6:

00 AM look like for you?

What does 7:

00 AM look like for you? What's the escalation every single day?" And to really track that. And that's actually... That's a big part of why we do what we do in The Journal That Talks Back, around mood, is it's so important to keep track. So I have that therapist and I also am a client of The Journal That Talks Back as well. I have a fantastic coach who sort of helps me navigate a lot of... Being an entrepreneur is hard, so we get to navigate a lot of that work. So, I have a really, really great support system around me in that way, a bit from everything. Yeah, that's terrific. And I think that that can work really well for many people. I work with... Yeah, totally. A lot of people in coaching, who also have therapists or who have worked with a therapist. And the style that I use in coaching is cognitive behavioral therapy based, because that's a technology, that's an approach that's scientifically proven, is evidence based, and that also creates, in my perception, very speedy results, really, for people. Yeah, absolutely. I can get all that. What advice would you give to people, young people who are having difficulty managing their anxiety then? Yeah, absolutely. So I would say that there's so many amazing resources, and really the difficulty that we have in our societies right now is access. And a big part of access is generally you as a young person getting up and saying,"I don't feel good, I need help with it," and that can be really, really hard. But that help is there, and there's really good people who really know and understand what you're going through and how to help you get from point A to B. So you're not the only one, if you ever need... Reach out, I'm sure Dex, myself, anybody else in the mental health community would be happy to help you access what you need to access. Yeah, the help is there, just taking that second to say,"I need help and I'm gonna give it a go." And you might not find the best therapist for you right away, there might be a trial and error period or the best coach for you right away, but you'll definitely find that person that you need who's gonna look you right in the eye or right in the journal and help you get to that other side, for sure. Yeah, I would agree with that. And also, I just quickly wanna return to one thing you were talking about, which is the health implications of something like Anxiety. Anxiety and stress particularly have a very negative effect on the body, once we trigger our amygdala and we start shutting down all our rest and repair functions, most of the people who come to me have chronic ill health physically, and so I think if that's happening for anybody who's listening, it's not unusual to have something like anxiety, stress, burnout associated with ongoing health conditions, and those health conditions can be supported by having coaching, therapy, counselling, some kind of remedial effort with the anxiety. Yeah, for sure. One simple example is, most people with anxiety experience the tensed shoulders that are all the way up here, like up to your ears. And maybe one day of that, having a heightened day isn't a big deal. But if you have your shoulders up here every single day, every week, every month, every year, you're gonna have stiff shoulders and a stiff neck and stiff muscles, and most of those people are gonna see chiropractors, and that's all important that you'll need that to support that healing. But if you don't take the time to go to a therapist or go to a coach to deal with that underlying stress, you're always gonna have the stiff shoulders. Not saying that all stiff shoulders are as a result of anxiety. That's not the case. There's lots of reasons. But if you're stressed, it could be, for sure. Yeah, I agree, a lot of health conditions can spring from that, a lot of digestive issues, issues, all sorts of things. But in your experience when you've been working with young people, so you've been working for quite a long time now, is, what do you think the difference is, what works best in working with this demographic maybe as opposed to older adults? Do you know what that difference might be? For me, the only difference I've actually really, really had the experience and seen is actually generally just that young professionals, the young people I've worked with in more of a coaching capacity, not in that child and youth capacity, have actually been a lot more open and open to having the conversation around, "Yes, I am feeling anxious, let's hear how to work with it." And not saying not all old people, just a lot of the older people that I've had a coaching experience with actually tend to be a lot more closed off with it. "It can't be anxiety, it must be my terrible boss or something like that." And we'll work through it the same way. We'll get there. If you have a terrible boss, you're going to work, you're stressed, you take it home, we can call it what we wanna call it, but that tends to be the big difference for me, is the comfortability around labels or around feelings and being open. Well, that's fascinating. As I was listening to that, I was thinking,"Yeah, that's really, really true for me," and my parents, when I was brought up, it was the ultimate taboo to mention mental health. Nobody had mental health problems. And if you did, you just shut up and got on with it, and I was very much raised in that culture. So it kind of resonates with me that I think a lot of people, a lot of older adults have got the kind of stiff upper lip, going, "I'm just gonna find a way to sort this out, or else I'm gonna get angry with everybody else." It kind of resonated. So it's interesting that Gen Z are more open like that, which I think is a very helpful sign for them because it will allow them to seek help and to talk about what's bothering them. Yeah, absolutely. I was talking to a really young person a while ago, not through work, it was just a family friend had a teenager who just wanted to talk about some stuff, and they were telling me about... Were talking about sexuality and their depression at 12 years old. And even for me, somebody who's so into this, and I read about it and I work in it, and I'm in the trenches all the time, hearing somebody so young talk about what they were going through in a way that was far superior to the way that I'd even be able to talk about it, was so incredible. So, while it's more there, I have a lot of hope that because people are talking about it and to the level that they talk about and identify with it and look for communities and support to help them, I have some hope. I think it'll be... I think it's really empowering. Yeah, great. That's what I quite often wish, when I realized how helpful the coaching tools are that I've used on myself, self coaching as well as working with others, is it's all about improving our relationship with ourselves, loving ourselves, accepting ourselves, supporting ourselves, having our own back, finding ways to create internal safety and trust, which I think a lot of us have grown up with not enough of. So when we do that, it's so... It creates such strength and resilience within us, we are a bit less susceptible to external pressure when we've got a terrific, supportive relationship with ourselves. And I wish kids were taught this in schools 'cause I think they would grow up with automatically more... A stronger self support system. Yeah, I actually just met a friend, a new friend. They're out of Winnipeg, and they run an association called... Or a not for profit called Project 11, and they're part of the Winnipeg Jets, one of the hockey teams in Canada. That's what we do over here. But they actually bring mental health curriculum into elementary schools. And I went through the curriculum just because I was curious, I thought, "Damn, that's the coolest thing." Not even that 12 year old who just was so self aware, but to have four or five year olds who are gonna be able to notice when they've reached that point of meltdown and to practice belly breathing, or to practice something even just simple and rudimentary, building that in at four or five years old, when you're 25, that's all hard wired now. So, I think it's fantastic, and I'm excited to see more people doing that kind of work. I'll be looking that one up for sure. Sounds very, very interesting. And it draws to mind for me, like in... I remember somebody having a conversation with the Dalai Lama, who's one of my guiding lights, if you like, and he was talking about American... An American was asking a question about self hatred, what would you do about self hatred? And he said, "Well, I don't really understand. We don't really have that in our culture, because children are brought up to automatically believe that they are perfect, they're always perfect." That inner perfection remains regardless of their experiences or even their behaviors. And they've got that kind of inner cushion that I wish the youngsters of today could develop in some ways, or anything like that Project 11, I think is terrific. What would you say to parents of Gen Z people or younger, who... Or children who have an experience of anxiety? Yeah, absolutely. I would say, if you're a parent who has really young children, two, three, four, five, six, anxiety and even depression comes out in really behavioral ways. A four year old isn't gonna come and say,"Mom, I feel anxious," they're gonna lash out. And it's really important, keep a notebook with you, track when those behaviors are happening,'cause I assure you, they're patterns, and they might be specifically tied to school or specifically tied to a transition back home after school or anything like that, or maybe from camp or whatever the case might be. It's always a bit more behavioral. If you notice a pattern in a specific way, maybe because of transitions, let's say, you now know what the problem is and you can effectively work with it, or bring supports in to work with it. But when it comes to teenagers, older children, teenagers, while still pretty behavioral, a lot of them have unique and really open ways about talking about their mental health, their sexuality, all the stuff that's going on. If they talk to you about it, even if they're super young, don't dismiss it because they're young. Take the time to listen. Have a good conversation about it. And if you're learning about it yourself, use your ears, take the time to listen to what they have to say and then go learn more about it, because this world of mental health, it's a spectrum, the world of sexuality is a spectrum and it's ever evolving. So what these kids are bringing from school and from their bodies and from their minds and from the Internet, it's important to be open, so they actually have a place to express. And if at the bare minimum, we're that spot for them to express, we're already in like the top 1% of parents, you're doing a great job by doing that. And also if they're really struggling, and you see that fear when they come to talk to you about that, that's a perfect time to go to... There are plenty of fantastic youth programs around all of those topics, there are plenty of fantastic child psychologists and youth workers and all sorts of different people to work with them on those topics, if it's not a parent kind of role. So, definitely be open to that, give those things a try and... Yeah, absolutely. Superb. And I think it's advised that a lot of parents need, a lot of parents are a little bit at sea with how to work with their children who are struggling. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's almost this fear response that happens if your son, your kid comes up to you and says,"I feel depressed." It's like, "What do you mean? What did I do wrong? What do you mean you're depressed? You have a good life," or something like that. But in that moment, we have to sort of detach ourselves, and not that I'm a parent, I'll have a lot to learn too, I'm sure, but you have to detach yourself, just listen to what's going on and have an open conversation about it the same way you would with a friend who is struggling with the same thing. Yeah, that's a whole another topic. We could probably talk for another hour on that. In fact, we could probably talk for another hour on many things, but I'm afraid we're coming to a close of time here today, Jonathan. So, what would you like to leave people with today? Yeah, thanks so much, Dex, and thanks so much for having me. I think the thing I wanna leave with today is, no matter what stage you are at with your mental health, if it's something you've explored, if it's something you haven't explored, if it's something your kids are talking to you about, or you're listening and you wanna talk to your parents or to your counsellor or to your school about, don't be afraid to have those conversations. It can be a lot at first to express those feelings for the first time, but everybody experiences isolation and feels stress and knows what it means to feel lonely or unheard, and having those conversations and connecting with people and having those real talks is really, really important. Yeah, use your courage and have those conversations, and that's doing a great job. And it'll help you for the future. Okay, cool. And if people are interested in The Journal That Talks Back, please let us know how people can find you. What you'd like to say about that? Yeah, so anybody who's interested, you can check us out at thejournalthattalksback.com, we have a fun site with drag and drop stickers, so you can come and check that out. We have a podcast where one of our coaches, who's a psychiatrist actually, and we coach TV characters on the show. We get journals in from Walter White from Breaking Bad, and Marge Simpson, and we get to coach those characters, and so it's a lot of fun. So, give that a try. We definitely touch on some interesting topics there. I'm on TikTok @jonathanfriedman1993. If you wanna see me do some dances, but also play guitar and talk about mental health and dating and all of those topics, and on Instagram as well, @journalthattalksback. Terrific, well, thank you so much for joining us, it's been a really fascinating episode today, it's been great hearing all of your stories. And I'm gonna post all of your links in the show notes, so for anybody who's listening, you can find them there. So folks, that's all we have time for today, thank you so much for joining us on the Burnout to Leadership Podcast. Stay well. And if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and rate the podcast episode. Thank you. If you're in burnout and ready to recover, come and join my Burnout to Leadership program. You can book in to talk with me at burnout.dexrandall.com. Just tell me what's bugging you, and let's make a plan to fix it.