Burnout to Leadership

Special 008: Yewande Faloyin on career development

August 18, 2022 Dex Randall
Burnout to Leadership
Special 008: Yewande Faloyin on career development
Show Notes Transcript

Meet Yewande, a leadership coach from UK who had a similar career path to me, through software development, consulting, leadership, entrepreneurship... and burnout!

We talk all things burnout and explore her emergence as a leadership coach and what she sees working for her clients. It's so fascinating that leadership is often not taught to professionals and thus growth from an essentially problem-solving technical role can be very challenging.

Find Yewande at https://www.otitoconsulting.com/
and  https://www.otitoleadership.com/getvisible 

To recover from burnout, start here mini.dexrandall.com
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Hi, everyone. My name's Dex Randall, and this is the Burnout To Leadership podcast where I teach professional men to recover from burnout and get back to passion and reward at work. I go, well, it's sort of like there was the pre burnout career, and then there's like the post burnout career. Because it was such a defining moment. So, I burnt out twice in 18 months in my last corporate job. So, I previously worked in finance, and then I moved into consulting with McKinsey. And I always describe my time there as the best three years of my corporate career, but I would never do it again. And it is really because of the burnout. I love the work I was doing, really energised by the people I was working with. I got to travel and work across different continents, work with really, really senior people, CEOs of huge corporations. It's all exciting, and at the same time I was just slowly, slowly, slowly burning out. And both burnouts were... And I'm sure we'll go into the detail. In the moment, it's interesting 'cause although if I'd stopped and someone had said, "You're burning out." I would've probably been like, "Ah, maybe." I'm still functioning. I'm waking up, I'm doing work. I'm engaging with people. I still have kind of a drive, but if I'd really, really stopped, which was eventually what then happened when I quit, and went, "Okay, what's actually going on?" Physically, just exhausted. I'd hurt my shoulder, I was just not good in a physical place. Mentally, really cluttered, although I was still doing work. Emotionally, just... The signs were there, and at the same time it's also on reflection been... I would wish it never happened to me, but it has actually been such a huge learning, and I take so much of that in what I do and how I actually create a nice structure for myself and for my clients going forward with my current business. Why do you wish it hadn't happened to you? So when I say, "I wish it hadn't happened." It's more intellectually wishing it hadn't. 'Cause it was a really, really challenging time. And I'll be really, really transparent. I had no personal life at that point, being really, really, really clear. One of the first moments actually that I think I'd started to realize that this was just not sustainable, was I remember sitting with a really good friend. And this was rare, like I never met up with anyone that I knew outside of work. I had friends in work, but just didn't have space and time for others. And there'd been a whole bunch of stuff happening in the UK. I think it might have been the year that the Manchester bombings happened, but there were just like a lot of really bad stories in the news. And I remember saying to my friend, just suddenly out of nowhere, "If something happened to me tomorrow and you came to my funeral, and the only thing you could say is, "She worked really hard," I will come back to this Earth and I will haunt you." But obviously it was more of me being frustrated of myself, because I was looking and going, "What have I actually... " Yes, I've accomplished a lot in work, but the working, working, working over, just burning myself out, just it wasn't the life that I wanted to live. So that's why I say on one side, if intellectually someone said, "Do you actually wanna go through that?" I'd probably be like, "No." However, it was also a blessing in disguise because so much of the learnings of that has really been what's propelled me in the business that I have today and the way that I work. I would agree with that. I think it's a real blessing. And people in burnout will wanna hit me for that, but the amount that you learn during the resolving of the burnout, about who you need to be as a human, I think is something we wouldn't come to by ourselves without having a smack around the head and being stopped in our tracks and going through this process of recovering. I think it's amazing. I would have never wished I hadn't been through burnout even though I had a very long and slow crash, and it was pretty miserable and I was pretty low on it. Yeah. I think you've just said it perfectly there. It's quite interesting, because you don't recognize how much you've learned from those experiences. And I recently did say it to someone as well, actually, because of all that I've learned, it actually makes me stronger today. I'm so clear about what's important to me. There are no two ways about it. It makes decision making so much easier now. So yeah, I completely agree with that. So what do you think? I read somewhere that you started off in software development, which is interesting 'cause that's where I started too. And I loved my software career. I loved it. But I'm curious what you think developed this tendency for you to go into burnout. Oh, I've done a lot of work on this, so I 100% know. So for me, it was fundamentally this connection between the more work I do, the greater the impact I can have. Even until today, my whole thing is how can I have the greatest impact on my sphere of influence, and even beyond my sphere of influence, which is a lot of where my strategy work comes in. But at that time, because... And I see this in other people, because I... I have and had a lot of confidence in what I was capable of, the logic is, it's linear. The more work I do, the more I can produce, therefore the greater the impact. So if that's what's going through my mind constantly, then of course I'm gonna do more work. I'm gonna go, "Oh, I can do more. I can do more. I can do more." And for me, it's like, well, if I'm still functioning, if I'm not in a hospital, if other people around me... I think the McKinsey environment's also very unique. I don't think that... Certainly pre burnout, I don't think that that mindset was down to McKinsey. I wouldn't blame a company for that, I think that was innately me. But that environment, it's like I'm that sort of person and then now I'm surrounded by other people who think exactly the same. And we all wanna help each other to do more and more and more for the client, then it's just a rolling thing. And so breaking that and breaking that sort of belief that, even when I started my business actually, I did a lot of work to recognize that... I guess I felt if I then lose that, am I losing my ambition and then the impact that I'm having in the world? And so I had to fundamentally break that belief, which was just not true, and actually go, "Actually, potentially the less I do, the more I can actually do in order to create more." Yeah, I'm on the same track. I look for all kinds of different multipliers now, and none of them is time based, if you're... Yeah. If you're trying to create success from time you're almost certain to create burnout, if you're very motivated and surrounded by motivated people... Yeah. Interesting. So you're working for yourself now, so what do you do now, then that's different, that doesn't get you back into a burnout style of working? It's interesting, 'cause if you'd asked me this even a year, maybe two years ago, it would probably be more about the processes. So first of all, I have to, again, do a lot of work sort of just on my mindset and what was going on there, and then I put processes in place. So as an example, and I prioritize those processes. So actually, I'll tell you early last year, I remember it, 'cause I do a mastermind group with other... I think three other business owners who are also coaches, and they're ex corporates, and the beginning of the year, we set our goals and I had business goals, but I was just like forget that I'm not gonna share that with them first. I was like, "My goal is, I wanna work... I think I said four days a week, three weeks a month, and then have two months off on holiday," which sounds ridiculous, right? It's like I'm still building my business. That makes no sense, but I was like, I've done it the opposite way around, where I've tried to fit in life and relaxation into work, it's like, why don't I just prioritize everything that I want and then work through that. So there was a whole reprioritizing of what's important, not one over the other, but trusting that they can both live together, and I also... So I have like a morning routine, just recognizing the type of person that I am,

I don't do meetings before 10:

00 o'clock, which just doesn't work for me. On a Monday, I don't do any meetings before midday because I need that space and I like that space to just get my head clear. I have morning routine, which includes yoga, I listen to positive music, I listen to prayer verses, there are things to just get my body, my mind, my emotions, just in zone, and that just... And it's always dependent on what I want. If I wanna ramp up a little bit, then I do that, that's why I said it's slightly different, I think probably two years ago, it was a little bit more of embedding the processes, and hopefully this is comfort to people who are listening, because I find that some... When I was going through that, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I feel so effort full, I have to constantly remind myself to not go into this burnout," but the more I found that for me, the more that I did that, the I more connected with what do I actually want out of life? What's important to me? Then with that embedding of the processes, eventually it got me to a place where now I don't even think about it. Now, I've had moments where if I just feel like my head's cluttered, I'll check, if I don't have anything on the calendar, I'll just go for a walk, or I'll just take half the day off because I know that when I am in that zone, I'd rather do... To your point of multipliers actually, there's no point of trying to push through when my head's not there, it's gonna take me five times as long. I'd rather create the space, take like 30 minutes to create the space, and then I know I'm gonna multiply the amount of work. So I'm a lot more strategic in that. It's a hard lesson to learn for those of us who are very time based in our thinking about productivity and success, is that something that most of us are taught during the course of our careers is we have to just work harder if we wanna do better, and I think working harder is a completely different game than we thought we were in. I'm the same, I go... 100%. I go on kayaking on the harbour if it's nice in the afternoon. Oh, that's lovely. Because you got to, really. It's changed the way I relate with people as well. So you've become a coach since your burnout episode, have you? Yes, so what's interesting about that story as well is that it was very much aligned with my burnout story actually, and this is another reason actually, 'cause you talked about burnout being a blessing, I think this is maybe the most critical blessing that I had. I quit because, part... There were a few other reasons, but a big part was burnout. Now, anyone who knows me before hand knows I'm very structured. I'll give you an example, when I quit my job at Morgan Stanley, I knew I had about six months before I actually wanted to move 'cause I delayed my start date at McKinsey, so I actually started finding someone to replace me, obviously without telling my boss 'cause I couldn't tell them until I was actually ready to go. I literally secretly interviewed someone, got them working with the team, I was like, "Oh, I think this person would be great to help us with these little things." So that they kind of gelled with the team. So when I quit, I was like, "Oh, and I already have a replacement." I'm structured, I have a plan, I have my spreadsheets, I was so burnt out that I couldn't do any of that, literally did not have the mental space to do that. Had I not been burnt out, I know that I would have gone through that process because that's a process that I know. To your point, even with the time thing, we're conditioned to focus on time, the same way I was conditioned that's my process. I was so burnt out, I was just like, Yeah, I can't do that. So I booked the yoga teacher training course, and then my strategy then, which now it sounds like, oh, this is this amazing strategy that I came up with, it was just because I was too tired. Just experience whatever happens. I would connect with people I wanted to connect with. I would... If anything seemed interesting, even if I didn't understand why it seemed interesting, I would explore that, and through that exploration, it was just like, I met a coach, I started going through coaching, I'd learn a little bit more, I don't actually remember the day that I decided to start my own business, that's how organic it was. And again, it was kind of a blessing because of the burnout. Yeah, I think there are certain parallels between you and me and probably a bunch of my clients, but I was thinking while you were talking, when you're talking about connecting with interesting people, because the older I get, the more and more fascinating, for some reason, people become. And that's a bit like doing this podcast, is I get to meet people I wouldn't have encountered in any other way and talk with them like yourself, which I think is... I don't know, it's very nourishing. Yeah, I hear you on that. I think the podcast you're doing is just amazing 'cause it's such an important topic, and I think it's not spoken about enough because it's either like you've never been through burnout, you're going through burnout or you're out the other end, and it just feels very transactional in it. But to your point, there are so many underlying reasons for it, and you can also see it as a blessing and use it as a real learning to strengthen yourself going forward. So I love this topic. Yeah, I'm not saying it was a glamorous journey to get here, but it did change me. The whole thing about God tapping you on the shoulder, and then if you're not listening he just throws the piano at you. Oh my gosh. Do you know what I often say? I love that, the throwing of the piano. I often say, and especially with the burnout that I'm not very good or previously I wasn't very good, if God kind of taps on the window or if he opens a door... A window, so he literally has to slam the door in my face. It's like you need the loudest thing and to literally not be able to go through one door to be like, "Oh, there's another door. Well, maybe that's the door I should go through." I had a lot of help figuring that out, I first of all had a heart attack that nearly killed me, and then I got hit by a car, and I spent a lot of time in hospital. That's how much I had to stop. Wow, wow. And I think... But that's why I love doing... But do you think... That's why I love doing this work now, at least I can help other people before they get there. Yeah, yeah. What do you think... And I'm just curious, sorry, now I'm curious. What do you think your biggest lesson or lessons were from that period? Well, slow down is obviously one of them. Yeah. But I think also, accept more help was a big one for me. I was a bit of a type A, I just fixed every bloody thing by myself. That one told me because particularly when I was in hospital, I couldn't move, I actually couldn't physically move at all for two months, 'cause I'd broken too many things, and I had to get people to do everything for me. Literally, I couldn't sit up, and I had to depend on a lot of people, and that wasn't my MO before that, my MO was, "I got a problem, I'll fix it." But that's of course not really how people work. It took me a long time to discover that one. So now I enjoy connection a lot more. I wouldn't say I'm a... I'm still not in the master class of connection, but I so much love the connection I get in this kind of work, and the connection of the connection, the rebound effect, the multiplier effect in people. When I work with people, and then they start to recover and then they support the people around them, and their families get mended and this circle of influence just expands and expands, and I just... I love that. I love seeing people thrive. Who would have thought? Slow down, do less and greater impact in terms of getting more people to thrive. It almost doesn't make sense and yet it makes complete sense. Well, we didn't see it before, maybe. Type A, too hard driven to even notice.. There you go, just go and go and go. Exactly, very true. Very true. But that's why I think it's interesting 'cause you've taken on an entrepreneurial role, which for many people could be very hustling. A lot of people talk about the hustle of being... Starting a new business and all of that, but I think you and I might have a different approach. I don't... I'm not really into over work these days. No. It doesn't make sense anymore. Yeah, yeah. One of the first alumni events I went to, and it's probably because a lot of consultants take different tracks, but many of them also go on to be startup founders, so more they've got investors and they're time pressured and pressure to deliver. And I remember someone saying to me, "Oh my gosh, you started your own thing, gosh, you must be sleeping less." And I was just like, "No, I'm actually sleeping better than I've ever slept." And I think this is the key for me. If I were saying that and I was like, Oh my gosh, and I feel like I haven't made any progress in my business, I think that would have been a real challenge, but I was like, I actually said them, "No, I'm actually sleeping better and feel more energised and relaxed than I ever have. I'm enjoying my personal life, and I feel like I'm actually having more impact. My business has grown more than I would have had I done the other thing." That was... I remember that moment 'cause it was such a mind trip for me, and so that continued to remind myself of that connection of it's not just the case... And I think, certainly I felt like this before I went down this path. It felt more like, "Well, I'm gonna have to sacrifice again, my ambition and the impact if I do this." And then it moved to, "Well, actually they can both exist together," and now it's actually, "No, the fact that I do rest, the fact that I do take breaks, the fact that I don't start

before 10:

00, the fact that I don't have an alarm clock, that actually helps me perform better." So my business, my success, everything is just so much better. It's the reason for not just, "Oh, it's nice, they can kinda live together or I have to balance." It's all integrated. Yeah, yeah. I would agree with that. I think it's such a turn around, but I think it's so spectacular to have had the experience and be able to teach other people in this way as well. It's not about over working necessarily. Somebody asked me to do a webinar the other day, how to hustle your way to a 100,000 when you're starting a new business without burning out, and in order to even do that, I have to redefine what hustling meant because I... Yeah. No. Yeah, we are quite similar. Okay. So, well, one of the things that I picked up in your material is you talk a lot about advocates and I'm getting the sense that that's really supported you in climbing the corporate ladder when you were doing that. So I'm keen to hear a little bit about that, how you see that. And advocates in terms of sponsors? Yeah. Is that what you mean? Yeah. So, it's interesting, because when I think about moments where my career... I can clearly see it moments where my career accelerated versus when it either... I wouldn't say it went backwards. My career never went backwards, thankfully. But where it felt stalled, or like I wasn't moving externally as fast as I wanted. I could pinpoint from an advocate sponsorship perspective, what was going on there. Every time it zoomed up there were... And this is the key thing, senior people in positions where they had the power, the influence, and the access to help pull me up that made that difference. And when it stalled it was a lot slower. If I think about those moments, I wasn't clear about who those people were or I was, but they were obviously not the right people. There were a little bit more of mentors. They didn't actually have the power, the influence, the access to open up the doors that would then speed me through. Earlier on in my career, and this happens to a lot of people, if you are a high achiever and a high performer, just your performance, when you first start, you're just... The expectation is you're just there to like do stuff. Which is also why we then go into just doing, doing, doing as you go on, but it's like honing your craft, get the work done, and so people recognize that in you. And senior people are like, "I don't wanna lift this person up." What's different when you then almost like get that first promotion is the expectation as you get more senior, is that you actually have to do that work. It's no longer a, "Oh, they'll see my work." You've gotta do that work, like that's a part of your job. And again, it's both for obviously your progression, but even if I think about the impact that you have, if I don't have the power, the influence and the access, and I'll give you an example. I had a short example. I had a... I was working on a project at McKinsey and I remember we set out this whole vision, I was managing the whole thing, really excited about it, but there was one seat, like very senior leader on our client side who just wasn't budging. He had a very set idea of what he wanted from the start of the project and he just wasn't budging. Now, I like to think that I've built a lot of great influencing skills, but with the best skills in the world, my relationship with him, very different from his relationship with the partner who was above me. So instead of me hitting my head on the wall and going, "Alright, I'm just gonna do more work. I'm gonna show him more stats. I'm gonna show him more presentations. I'm gonna try to influence him." I'm like, "Who has the power, the influence and the access to do this?" Which will then show that I'm leading this further, but then also create the impact that we want. I was like, "Oh, my partner." So instead of spending time with the client, I spent time with the senior partner going, "Hey, here's the barrier. What I need from you for us to move this forward is... " So I have this concept of coaching my people to lead your senior leaders to the success that you want. And so there's a lot of focus on advocacy because it's clearly a huge determinator, both in terms of the impact that people have in the workplace and how quickly you progress. And like you are a software engineer and I'm a software engineer. When we go into leadership roles, some of us with an engineering or analytical background, we keep just trying to work hard and do what we always did to solve problems. 'Cause most people rising to leadership don't really get taught very much about leadership. It did took me a while to mature into understanding how to empower others and get them working super well together, which I think is the whole purpose of leadership. Yeah. Once you get there, you gotta... Yeah. But you're right. People rarely tell you that. Everyone's just trying to figure it out. I remember someone once said to me as a consultant, they were like, "Your job is not to solve the problem. Your job is to get the problem solved." Which for me was just like a slight, that was one slight twitch where I was like, "Okay, but if I'm not... What do you mean I'm not solving the... That's my... I'm supposed to... You're supposed to give me the problem, I'll tell you the answer." And it was like, no, and you're right. It does come from that background of engineering and software development and like science and maths, where you get a problem, you solve it. But leadership is different. Yeah. And a lot of people I work with who are in leadership, a lot of very senior leaders have come from this analytical process based background of some kind. And that training is not spectacularly useful in leadership a lot of it. It's really people skills. If you can't form a good team, a high performing team, troubleshoot people problems you're bit outta luck. So what do you think then when people are... When people come to you and they're trying to rise up in their organization, they're climbing the ladder. What do you think doesn't work? What do they do most that doesn't work? The key thing is... Well, one of the key things is they try to prove their worth in their work. It comes back to that, "I'm gonna do more. Let me work harder, work faster." It's the harder, it's like, just let me just... I'm just gonna do more, the more I do something will stick. Right? Yeah. So they're not... They're often... One, they're often not always clear about what they actually want from their careers. You'd actually be surprised... I mean, you'll know, you're a coach right? It's like, "Oh, I wanna get promoted." Alright, what's the title? What's the reason. Let's get specific on this, and this is where people then go, "Oh, I'm gonna get another job." And then they get swept into the same issue. What do you actually want? And why do you want it? No. Most of them are very blank on that question. Yeah. And if you don't know where you wanna be, how are you gonna get there? You're just gonna run around doing stuff. There's then the mindset of, "If I just work harder, one, hopefully something will stick, and hopefully someone will see it." There's a lot of hope. There's a lot of hope, there's not enough strategy I find. Yeah. And then to your point, there's not enough thinking about your multipliers. I think that's the thing. But fundamentally, it comes back... I hear a lot from people... And again, I see this in myself when I think back like five, six, seven years, I hear a lot from people, but if I don't do it, no one... No one will see, no one will know that I'm capable of this. But I have to know 100% of the information. If I don't do it, no one else can do it better. Maybe, maybe not, which is then goes to delegating and helping, but a lot of it really just comes down to fear of letting go and trusting one, that the stuff that you know how to do, you'll do that stuff with your eyes closed, that's not the thing. And to your point, it's how do I actually grow in that lead... How do I show... Instead of showing that I can do more of what I'm already doing, which to me just means your company should give you more of that, if I see someone's great at something, why would I move them on? Instead, you have to showcase those leadership skills that we talked about, which then moves more to people management, people are uncomfortable with that. So you have to push through that discomfort. Yeah, they are. I'm running a class at the moment for very high level leaders to dream bigger than they've ever dared before, like miles bigger. Really just go nuts. What do you want your legacy to be? And all of them are frozen in the headlights for quite a while, and then they start having ideas that are outrageous, okay, now we're on to something, and they're like kids, they're like... As if like, oh, I've just given them a new toy to play with, and they suddenly realize they are allowed to play with it. And I'm wondering if you got that sense as well, because people do hold themselves down as in a technical capacity a little bit in the way I recognize that you've described as well, rather than blowing open what's possible above them. Well that they're interestingly, gifted, talented, experienced, wonderful people. They should be out there, if that's what they wanna do. Yeah. When you just said that you've got that coming up, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'd love to join that." 'Cause I love... So I know that one of the drivers for me and what I do is... And it sounds similar with something that you said earlier is, I feel like there's so much lost potential, and there are lots of different reasons why, but what you've just shared there is so critical. We dream so small, and it's because people are so... Again, there are lots of different reasons, but a fundamental one that I see time and time again is folks are so afraid, especially high achiever and high performers of failing and of not hitting that target, whereas I'm like, "Go bigger than the target" Way big. Go so big that you know you can't hit it. Even if you believe you can't hit it, go for that, and what you will hit will be beyond anything that you could dream of it, which is why what you're doing is just... That just sounds like amazing and fun and getting people to just say it. I once actually worked with someone who I do this exercise, which is similar, but it's a shorter piece where they have to send an email, which is like they're a year in the future and they're telling me the thing that they create in the next year is beyond anything they could dream of. I had a client who didn't do that exercise for like three months, she could not get herself, so a lot of the work we did was around mindset and what was going on there, 'cause so much of that was tied into stuff that she found challenging in work as well, but she admitted it, she said, "I'm so scared to put this on paper, because what if I don't achieve it." right? Yeah. But I think that goes through a lot of people's minds as well. We should do more of those exercises of being... But it's so painful though, to dream small it's so so limiting and painful. You've got to shut down big parts of yourself a bit like being in burnout really. It's excruciating, not following your dream. And everybody comes alive, it's like, it's having the courage to be your full self, it's a challenge for most of us, me included. But the more you do it, the more fun it becomes, and the less and less the result actually matters. You're are still gunning for all these amazing things, but the results stop being the only thing you care about. Exactly, exactly. And then what you learn through that it just affects all areas of your life. Wait, just real quick, when you said about what came to mind was, my niece, and... So I don't have kids, but I have nieces and nephew, and one of my nieces in particular, it's interesting seeing the path she's gone on, she's now nine, starting with... I remember her walking around London and she saw someone on a track... Not on a tractor, but one of these... They were digging the ground, and she said, and she's like, "Oh, that looks cool." She was like,"Yeah, I wanna do that when I... " She was like four at that time or five, she was like, "I wanna do that when I grew up," and I was like, "Yeah." And she's walking really confident, and she's like, "'Cause I can do anything I wanna do," Just like, "Yes." I was like, "Yes, you can." And then there's a certain point where I noticed some of her confidence starts to lag a little bit now. And so now I'm sure you do this, kids around, I practice my coaching on everyone, not practice, I guess I just ask the questions, and then when I kinda remind her of stuff like that, I'm like, "But you told me you can do anything you wanna do," and she's like, "Yeah," and then she's like, "Yeah, maybe I'll be a doctor and I'll be a lawyer." like, "Yeah. Okay why not?" And it's interesting how at some point in our lives, or in so many people's lives, you lose that, which is why when you said that, that exercise, people become a little bit more childlike. Yeah, we should be more childlike in certain aspects, right? 'Cause when do we ever encouraged to lighten up and really open up and play. As adults in the corporate world, it's not something big on most people's agenda. Yeah, exactly. This is where we can give the most, this is where we can contribute our best... And we're having to agree. Look it's been really interesting to hear from you. Out of time, I'm afraid. So tell us what you would like to leave us with today. Where can people find you? What you have... So best place to find me is either on my website otitoleadership.com or and this is the benefit of having a very unique name, if you just search Yewande Faloyin on LinkedIn, that's usually where you can find me. I love having these conversations as well, which is a bummer that we've come to the end of this, so if anyone has any questions or wanna share anything, they can reach out to me there, and I always love to leave something... Because one of the things that we really talked about was advocacy, and when you start to build out those multipliers and also move past the work equals... Working more equals more impact and more... Become more strategic on it. I find that that's a really, really big breakthrough, so I would love to leave folks a masterclass that I do on increasing your visibility in order to achieve your next level with motion and impact, and you can find that at otitoleadership.com/getvisible. Hopefully that would be in the show notes. Yeah, we'll put that... We'll put the link in the show notes for you. Anyway, it's been terrific to talk with you today, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much, Dex. Honestly, it's been so great. Yeah, we could have probably gone for hours, but anyway. That's all we got time for today. We gonna see you next time, listeners on Burnout to Leadership. If you're in burnout, and ready to recover, come and join my Burnout to Leadership program. You can book into talk with me at burnout.dexrandall.com. Just tell me what's bugging and let us make a plan to fix it.