Burnout to Leadership

Special 003: Faryal Michaud Interview - life and death physician/coach

March 11, 2022 Dex Randall, Faryal Michaud Season 1 Episode 25
Burnout to Leadership
Special 003: Faryal Michaud Interview - life and death physician/coach
Show Notes Transcript

Faryal talks about the preciousness of life and living an intentional life. 
See www.drfaryal.com

Hi everyone, my name is Dex Randall, and this is the Burnout to Leadership podcast where I teach professional men to recover from burnout and get back to passion and reward at work. Hi, hello listeners, this is Dex and I'm very excited today to welcome a fellow coach who I have had some working with in the past, very excited about her work, and I will allow her to introduce herself to you in her own words. Faryal Michaud, welcome to the podcast. Hi Dex. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure. Tell us about yourself. Yeah, so... Tell us what you do now in your coaching first of all, and then we'll start working on how you got to this point. Yeah, absolutely. So it probably matters to know what type of coaching I do because of what kind of work I do, I am a 52 year old palliative care physician, I practice and live in a beautiful state of Hawaii and I have... For those of you who may not know, palliative care is the type of sub specialty in medicine that we take care of end of life patients and people that have terminal disease and critical illness. And best way to talk about what palliative care is, is listening to people about what their wishes and goals are, or wishes and hopes are, and trying to align their life, really, and medical decisions based on that. And so when I learned about life coaching and what it was, I just felt like, well, if I took this more upstream with people who don't have a serious illness and are not dying, it's really the same idea, is listening to them. So I feel like it's the extension of the same thing. So I sometimes joke that I'm a life and death coach, and so I take care of people in their difficult times, but I also share with people my gift that I've learned through the life coach school about how to live intentionally, how to focus on what matters most and live yourself with that perspective of how precious life is and how all we have is in this moment, so how can we really try to live the best life we know how, because that's all we have right now. So that's sort of what my life coaching is. I will share that I work with professional women, mostly are physician, but not all. And I offer group coaching, and in addition to that, in my program, I have certified Iris meditation instructors and yoga teachers, which I feel like mindfulness is super important in living intentionally. But I also offer pro bono coaching for people with serious illness, so if you have a loved one or a family member that has serious illness, I'd be glad to get on a call, whether one on one with you or with them as a family and sort of talk about life coaching. Not medically, but life coaching for people with serious illness, it's my pleasure to offer that as well. So that was amazing. I didn't know all of those things about you, but I'm curious to know how you discovered the life coach school and/or life coaching. Yeah, so I have to say I've known about life coaching in the past, like for example, when I lived in California for 10 years before moving here. I know people who had a life coach, I know people who actually worked with a life coach, most of the people I knew that worked with a life coach were higher socio economic status. I feel like the executives in my hospital had a life coach. I always felt like life coaching wasn't for the lay people, and it was for people who had tons of resources and tons of money, the people who had a personal chef had a life coach. Oprah had a life coach. So I felt like it was something for other people, and I'm a physician, and one of my physician friends who personally had worked with a life coach had reached out to me. Actually, it was around the time that I moved to Hawaii and was telling me, "Oh, have you heard of Brooke Castillo? You need to listen to her." And I'm a runner, and so I listen to podcasts. Podcast is like the way I consume information. So to me, having one more podcast to listen to was I'm like, "Oh okay, I'll check her out." And then that particular colleague of mine herself decided to pursue to become a life coach, and I'll be honest with you, at that time, even though I was passively consuming the information and it was very interesting, it sounded like a pyramid scheme to me. I'm like, okay, everyone who listens to life coaching, then wants to be a life coach. I didn't know what it was enough to figure it out, but I'm like, what are you doing? Then, it was in 2020 that it was around the time of COVID where I'm a practicing physician, and we're all stuck in our little silos. Can't travel. I remember it was March of 2020 that we were gonna go to New Zealand, 'cause it was spring break. And had we gone to New Zealand, we would have been quarantined and couldn't leave the country, and so around that time, everybody was sort of being pushed in their little silos, and I heard about an empowering women physician group that was offering general life coaching and business coaching and I sort of was itching, Dex, that I wanted to make more impact. But I didn't know how, and I didn't even know what I would be doing, so I joined this program... That was life coaching, but really trying to find out what can I do to do more since I was isolated. And I joined that program and it completely changed my life. And I worked with life coaches within that program, and I learned that I had all these issues that I didn't know. Like, I was... I've always been a very happy person, and I have always felt like, from zero to 10, my life is like an 11. I was someone who didn't struggle. Like, I can't say that I was struggling with this and that, but having worked with different life coaches in that program, I addressed my relationship with my kids, and I addressed my relationship and my work, and I addressed... Like, all these things that maybe they were good, but they really were not. And I was able to look at parts of my brain that if you can think about a room or a kitchen, I had junk drawers in my brain. And working all these different junk drawers in my relationship, in my work, in my personal purpose life and fixing all of those areas really up levelled my life. And then since then I have a podcast that I talk about, writing your last chapter, really writing your best chapter, and it has been able to create so much more impact that I just was like, "This is it." And then like everybody else, started listening to the podcast, starting to... Really applied these life coaching skills into my own life and practice as a physician and as a mom and a spouse and a daughter in law. And then I'm like, this is ridiculous, I have to share this with more people, that's how I became a life coach. That's really quite fascinating and big shout out to Sunny as well, right? Sunny Smith. Yes, I remember working with you as well in that part of that journey when you were investigating that and that was opening up for you. So, it seems like a natural fit then, where you were before in your previous career, you're continuing on in the same theme. Did you ever consider that when you became a coach, maybe not doing that, or was that why you got into coaching so that you could coach in palliative area? Yeah, I just... Like I said, I saw a very interesting parallel, right? Like for example, people don't know much about palliative care, so in the US... I don't know how it is in Australia, but in US, palliative care, it's American Academy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine. People know about Hospice, they don't know about palliative care, so it didn't become a sub specialty till 2006. So any physician who had finished training prior to that, they don't like... They don't want palliative care. They're like, I don't need you guys to see my patient, I know how to have these conversations. Our skill set is conversation, holding space, which I know that Brooke teaches is the skill set that we are taught. And so, it's very much similar... So I think one reason that it was easy for me to process it and easy for me to be like, "Oh, this is what I'm doing, and this is very similar to what I'm doing," is because, it's the same language. Like, if the surgeon has a scalpel as their specialty tool, my specialty tool is listening to people. So I feel like it was a very... It was not a convoluted way to get to coaching, it was like... I always sort of think like I was coaching people, but now the questions that I ask now when I see patients in consultation, I can see how their thoughts is leading to these kind of actions. And I think as... Before learning the tools of the life coach school, I don't think I could see that direction, connection. But you're still working as a physician now in palliative care? Yes, yes, I am. It's interesting what you say about palliative care, because for me it came up probably in my life in the '90s, along with the AIDS crisis where people around me were dying. I find that... And you talked about coaching as well, being a thing for executives who had everything, and it's interesting, 'cause I think acceptance of coaching is much more normalized. Life coaching, particularly, is much more normalized in America, people have a coach for everything. Whereas in Australia, where I live, it's a little bit more like, what? You're doing what? So it's interesting that the people in America that you're working with, you're suggesting that they don't have a very high awareness of the palliative side of things, 'cause for me that's also a point of interest. I think it's a fascinating area that is very neglected, in modern life. What's your take on that? Yeah, you know, it's interesting because for the longest time in many different institutions, they don't wanna call their service palliative service, because they feel like, "Oh, the doctors don't wanna refer to them," they like to call it supportive service. And so, for example, if you go to MD Anderson, which is one of the major hospitals for cancer treatment, their palliative care department is called Supportive Care Department, and so they felt like changing the name. So, imagine if we changed life coaching to calling it something else, so that we get the same result. So I feel like... So, to palliate is a Latin word, which means to cloak, so we are as a layer of support for the patients and their families. It's really the only sub specialty in medicine that equally treats the patient and the family, because we know that if family is not part of that decision making process, and in terms of goal of care discussion, that a patient won't exactly get the care they want, because it all has to be part of one group. And palliative medicine in the US anyway, which I know it's the same internationally, it's a multi specialty level in that we have a chaplain part of our team. We have a social worker, we have a nurse, some organizations even may have a physical therapist part of the team, so we know that human... To care for the full human being and a human experience, you need to address your existential spiritual suffering and all of that, and as a physician, I can't address any of that. So I feel like as a life coach what's been interesting is that, yes, we're also like, "Why would you need a life coach?" And the best example, 'cause in the US, and maybe this is true in Australia, too, is that people understand coaching for sports, and I always talk about, and I always... This the way I teach people is that, you know, I'm a runner, and it's like I can run a half marathon 'cause I've done it. I can run a marathon 'cause I've done it, I've done a 50 mile race 'cause I've done it, like that already has become evidence in my brain that I can do it, but if you tell me, "Faryal, can you qualify for Boston?' I'm like, "Uh, no," but I know if I wanted to, I would get a coach, and with a coach I know... I can do it myself, but I may get injured, I may not do it well. But I know with a coach, I am 100... There's no doubt in my mind that if I get a running coach, I can qualify for Boston. So I think that's how life coaching is, that can you do it on your own? You probably could, but you can get injured and you probably may not get there as efficiently and as quickly as a life coach can do that for you. I sometimes use that parallel myself, and this is why I tell people they're not broken, there's nothing wrong with them, what we're doing is enhancing performance. I would use a similar parallel that people tend to understand. And I'm curious what your thoughts are about what difficulties people are experiencing or what issues they are experiencing in the palliative area and what the benefits are of coaching for that? That's a very good question. So let me give you an example, is... I'll give you two examples in terms of cancer. So let's say a patient who is a cancer survivor, a cancer survivor is always going around thinking that the shoe is gonna drop, like I'm gonna... Every time they go for a screening imaging, they're like, "Okay, there's a spot there." Or every time there's a headache, "That now... It's spread now," or... There's always this feeling. I talk about the land of well, and the land of living, and then the other land. So right now, I'm 52 years old and I don't have a diagnosis of chronic illness. Right now, I don't. The second somebody is gonna see a spot on my liver, or the second somebody is gonna see a spot on my lung that I don't know what's going on, I no longer am living in this land. Now, it doesn't mean that I have a clear understanding of what's going on or I have a clear deadline, but while there's uncertainty that is inherent to life, once I have crossed the living, I am so much more pulled into this quicksand of uncertainty. I can't sleep well, I am constantly, "What could this be? This is the worst thing." We all know that as a parent, when you're a physician, when something happens to your child, you imagine the worst because you know the worst. So now that you're no longer in this land of living, the patients that have been cancer survivors are always in this little area, and this little area of uncertainty keeps you up at night and it keeps you thinking every mammogram is gonna be abnormal, and every colonoscopy is gonna find something. So what happens, why coaching is so powerful, is that... Here's what I wanna tell you. Say I'm a cancer survivor, and say that in 10 years, my cancer is gonna come back. If from now till 10 years from now I keep thinking the cancer is gonna come back, I'm gonna rob my life experience from what it can be, not having to entertain those thoughts, because constantly it's gonna be like, "I'm not gonna see my grandkids, and I'll never see my child graduate from college." I can have all these thoughts that are unnecessary, robbing me of my life experience. Now, within that 10 years, the cancer may not come. If it didn't come back, I have robbed that 10 years of that experience of cancer free life. But even if it does come back, I have still robbed myself of those 10 years. So I think my palliative care and coaching are so inherently well together is that you can choose to think the cancer is coming back, and that's unnecessary suffering you're adding to your life. You can choose to think the cancer is not gonna come back. So the teaching I always say is if things can go wrong, they can also go right. Why not bet on that until... So that was one example. Another example I wanna say is say there's a condition, lung condition that is terminal, and it's very sad people who have it. It's called idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis, it's a scarring of the lung that we don't know what the cause is and we can... And it's progressive, right? Every time, you're gonna get sicker and sometimes it gets really progressive quickly at the end, and that's the end. So I have a... I had a client who was having a respiratory exacerbation, like they had a really bad breathing situation. So what I shared with them was like... And they're like, "I don't know what this is. I don't know if this is the pneumonia, or I don't know if it's the idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis getting worse." And I asked him, I said, "What would you like to believe?" 'Cause, you know, I don't know in his mind which one is worse. And he said, "Well, I'd like to think it's the pneumonia," and I said, "Well, let's think it's pneumonia, then. Because if you don't know what it is, what is the downside of choosing the lesser of the evil thought, there is never a downside. And if you can choose the one that is less likely to keep you up at night, why not choose that? Why not? Why not? That's what I think. I don't know if you've heard of this. I watched quite significantly a number of years ago, there was a documentary called Heal, and it was a little bit like this, it was people with, for example, advanced stage four cancer and things like that, and how they could heal themselves in a complementary way in addition to medical interventions. It's got Deepak Chopra, Bruce Lipton, Greg Braden, and a bunch of other people talking about how people have healed themselves... Based on their attitude and their understanding and their thoughts about a problem, which pretty much marries with the way that we work with coaching, but I'm interested to hear from you now, how you marry then you work as a physician with now your works a coach, because there are limitations, aren't there then? In one sense, I feel like there is no limitation, I feel like it's an additive effect in both. I feel like I'm a better coach because I'm a physician, and I feel like I'm a better physician because I'm a coach. It's additional toolset, right? It's like I have a toolbox of ways that I can communicate with people and I can empower people, and I can encourage people, and I can inspire people, and I feel like those tools are more plentiful because I'm a physician and a coach. And so I wanna give you an example. For example, one thing that is new and upcoming and has been sort of in the dark rooms of laboratories since the 1950s is use of psilocybin, which is a type of mushroom, to take away human suffering at the end, and it used to be like a joke, and it used to be the hippies, and there's actual true, legitimate episode... I mean, evidence that this is going to take away human suffering. People have actually used it like one dose in a very controlled setting with a therapist and a physician and a psychiatrist in the room, and the people's experience of suffering has completely gone away with one use. And so what I wanna share with people is that within our lifetime, we're gonna see this becoming standard of care for people with end of life anxiety and existential distress that would become mainstay therapy, and in the US, anyway, we have certain states that have medical aid in dying as an option, so people who have terminal disease, and have six months to live, can go through a certain set of very protocoled and structured guideline to decide to end their own life, and so I feel like if we live in a society that can offer people an option to end their life if they meet a certain criteria, we should be able to live in a society that people can take a medication to take away their suffering. To me, it's a no brainer. So I feel like psilocybin would be one more toolkit that is available in people's toolbox to take away human suffering, so I see coaching as another set of tools that I can take away human suffering within practice of palliative care, as well as I see the language that I've learned in palliative medicine, as well as the perspective that it's given me that life is short, as well as the mindfulness teaching that I've had in years to say perspective matters. When you feel like, "Oh, my God, this is the worst thing that I'm going through." I can go to the hospital and pull 16 people that can change position with you like this, and they'll be happy they did. So I think the perspective of what the fragility of life is to people that are walkie talkie and having no problem, where it takes them from the land of living with no care in the world to having this weight of anxiety and uncertainty has allowed me to better coach people. So I don't really ever think it's a conflict, I always see it as a compliment, and I don't see it as a limitation, I see it as a additive toolset. Very interesting for me to hear what you're saying about these... If you like complementary therapies, because it's quite interesting how many drugs or how many substances that we've previously thought of as, if you like, recreational, and now being absorbed into the medical usage again like ecstasy used to be back in the day, because that's magic mushrooms you're talking about there, isn't it? Yeah. Not quite. So psilocybin is very unique and the experience that it would provide for people. And there's actually a very good book, if your audience likes to... There's a documentary called "Fantastic Fungi", and that's a good one to watch, and Michael Pollan, who writes amazing books, there's a book that he's written, "How to Change Your Mind," and he actually himself took psilocybin and shares his experience. So this is very specific, this is very well... It's not the same idea as ecstasy, and currently at Johns Hopkins they're having medical studies done with people with end of life care disease and both for anxiety, depression, and chronic pain that is being... Treating people with one dose treatment, which is fantastic. Yeah, I've read about that, and I think it's fantastic as well, but when you were talking like that, it made me wonder that, if you could get your message out to every single person in the world, what would you want them to know about the end of life experience or the work that you do? Wow. The fact that... This is a very good question, Dex. I've been on many Podcasts, and I think this is the best question. If every human life is a book, the last chapter matters, you are absolutely in the driver's seat till the very end, and if you think the physicians want what's best for you, you're wrong, because they don't know what's best for you, only you know what's best for you. I think people go to the hospital to get better, and people are going to hospital to die, and nobody went to medicine to take care of dying patients. Like we've all went to medicine to fix people, we went to medicine to diagnose people and make them better, but if 100% of people die, that means 100% of the time, we will fail as physicians. If we're running to medicine to cure people, the patient's assumption that the physician will do what's best for them is not right. The physician's... The patient's assumption should be, the physician will do what they're trained to do. So if you go and see an oncologist, they're trained to give you chemotherapy. No matter what. Sometimes that the chemotherapy shortens your life, but they're trained to give you chemotherapy. That is the same thing with dialysis. A nephrologist will put you on dialysis because that's what they learned to do. So if you want to have a very clear end of life, like picturing yourself, what your life is going to unfold at the very end, you have to be very specific, you have to be very deliberate with what you will do and what you will not do. Because at the end of life, you can crash and burn in the ICU on three different drips that are supporting your life moving forward, when everyone taking care of you knows you're not gonna survive hospitalisation, but still pushes through. Or you can say, "If my time is limited and none of what you guys are doing here is gonna buy me meaningful time, this is what I want." And the only way that you can communicate that is if you're very specific and very deliberate and having conversation, an ongoing conversation. So I wanna say this because this part is important. Right now, in my advanced healthcare directive, I'm okay with a feeding tube. Because for me, right now, as healthy ish as I am, if I need a feeding tube it's probably gonna be because I've been hit by a car and I'm going through some traumatic experience and maybe I can't swallow, and I need that feeding tube to get me to where I wanna be, which is where I am right now, an independent person who paddles, who runs. I want a feeding tube to get me here. But if I have a massive intracranial bleed... Let's say I have a huge stroke and that I'm completely dependent in all of my day to day care, I don't wanna feeding tube. I don't wanna live like that, if I'm gonna be parked in a nursing home for the next 12 years and die of pressure ulcers. So having that conversation clearly at any time as the seasons of your life change. So what I want right now is based on what I can come out of that experience like, right? So having good questions. So when we meet with people and families is like, "What are you worried about? And what are you hoping for?" So, if I'm hoping for my grandma to leave the hospital to go back home gardening, and that's never gonna happen, that conversation has to be clear. So decisions I make is based on the fact that grandma may survive this hospitalisation, she's gonna be in a nursing home for the rest of her life. And if I'm worried about that, those decisions made at that chapter of life has to completely align with what my grandma wanted, not what I want but what my grandma want. So I think people don't know, people think that physicians know best and we don't, and they feel like physicians are doing the best thing for them. They don't, unless they ask what is the best thing for them? That's so interesting. Like I had the end of life discussions inside my own head when I had those two hospitalisations, that could have gone either way, I kind of had those. Okay, if I was at the end of my life, what then? I started kind of letting all of that percolate in me, and it's coloured who I am now. It's coloured how I show up in the world, so I'm curious what you would say to people about doing this work even though they're, as you described yourself, healthy ish at the moment and not in a end of life situation, is that something you would advocate or what your thought about that? Yeah, I think it's important... There's a website called The Conversation Project, and there's a lot of resources in the US and people can go and get that. This is not my website, but... In the US, we talk about my turkey, my conversation, so if you have opportunities to gather with people at times of even celebration, it's just very nice to say, "Hey, you can tell a story about a neighbor that this happened to, and say... You don't have to sound morbid, it you just have to be like, I really wanna do... Because it's a gift when you tell people what it is that you want. So, for me to make sure my husband knows what I do or don't want, it's a gift I give him so that he doesn't have to be riddled with guilt when he has to make a decision. So don't put a feeding tube in Faryal if she's had a massive intracranial bleed, that's gonna put her in a nursing home, because he knows what I want and what I don't want. So I think you can never be too specific, take a movie that you watched and use that as a dialogue and a conversation started as, what are the... What are the things that you would absolutely not want for your life? And what are the trade offs? And the reason I say this needs to be an ongoing conversation is because our normal changes, like right now, you swim, you run, you bike... If I tell you, "Dex, do you want dialysis?" You're like, "I don't want dialysis." Or I would say, "Hey, Dex, do you want me to put a nephrostomy tube in your kidneys?" And you're like, "No, no, dude, I run. I don't want that." But if I say, "Well, if we don't do dialysis, you're gonna die," you're like, "Sign me up." So knowing that these conversations are fluid and change based on what your normal is now, and that we can get used to a new normal. And then just knowing that not only is it important to have these conversations early on, but having it often, but also having it when the trajectory of our life changes. A new diagnosis of dementia or progressive mental decline, needs to have a serious conversation about feeding tube, whereas at now, well, maybe we don't want it. So having that conversations when you're completely well, is important. Having that conversation where you've had a new diagnosis is important. But also having a conversation when the neighbor had that diagnosis and saying, "Hey mom, what would you want if this were to happen to you?" And so the more we normalise these conversations, Dex, is the more we get the exact care that we really deserve. And I think for me, when I started having those conversations with myself, "Okay, what are my assets? What can I still do? What would I like to do with the rest of my life?" It made me feel very, very lucky to be alive and it re oriented my priorities completely about the way I showed up in the world, where I took advantage of this precious human life and my connections and the people that I cared about unless... We're running out of time now, and it's been so wonderful to speak with you and hear from you today, but I'd really like you just to tell us a little bit about who the people are that you would like to work with and how they can come and work with you? Yeah, so thank you for asking that question. I said that I have a... I do one on one coaching, and I also do group coaching, and most of the people there are physicians, and I think the only reason physicians resonate with me, part of it is because they listen to my Podcast, part of it is if you're a physician, you can join our physicians living intentionally Facebook group, it's a free Facebook group for everyone. We try to write inspirational stories or things that it's gonna help us focus on what matters. And, I like what you said because when I teach people about living intentionally, it's all aspects of their life. It's intentional eating, ending the mind drama about love hate relationship with food or scale, it's about intentional time and clutter management, it's about intentional relationship, it's about intentional life on purpose. What is your why, what if you could do something completely different with your life, what would that look like? So, we really cover all of that, but a lot of the reason why physicians are drawn to me is because, as a palliative care physician, they appreciate that I have a perspective that's very unique, and I think I give the gift of perspective to you, so for me, when people are freaking out about their to do list is, I don't want you to do more, I want you to do less. I want you to do less and do what matters to you, and sometimes it's... If you had to die tomorrow, what needs to get done and people would be like, "Oh, I wanna call my family and I want to maybe have a more connection," and those are the things... And I think this came up for you as well, that when you were in that seriously, very fragile state, that you just realized how much human connection was important, and I'm like, "How much of that human connection is on your to do list now?" And you talked about that when I interviewed you for your Podcast, is that, you know, I want you to focus from this doing to more being. Instead of doing all the things, how are you being the best mom? How are you being the best spouse and best friend and best... All of that, because there's so much more value in how the quality of our life is when we live intentionally in the moment, and sometimes living intentionally in the moment is like scrap the job you're doing, completely having to do another job because a true, authentic self of you, you are leaving your most intentional life, maybe doing completely different things with your life. And, I think I create that safe space for people to go there... Allow their minds to go there knowing nothing is wrong, and that they can really create their life that they wanna create, no matter where they are, but I also... People who have their loved one diagnosed with a serious illness, I do offer free coaching if people wanna come on and bring their mom and talk about what that all means. I do... Not as a physician, I have to say even though I'm a physician, it's not in a role of me as a physician, but it's just a role of me as a coach and my skillset as a palliative care to help you navigate those thoughts. Where can people come to find you? So, they can go on my website, it's www.drfaryal, that's F A R Y A L.com. And while they're there, they can get resource, they can listen to my Podcast, which is called Write Your Last Chapter, and I interview brilliant people like yourself, and people come talk about their grief, their loss of their own... It's a really very meaningful conversation that you can also have your family listen to it, so maybe if starting a difficult conversation with family is something that you struggle with, maybe you can say, "Hey, go listen to this Podcast and tell me what you think?" So, I think I'm trying to have impact so people can talk about that part of their life with ease and with grace. Been really delightful to hear from you today, thank you very much for coming on to speak, and I'm gonna ask you one closing question, of course, what's on your bucket list? Oh my God, I love that. I don't have anything on my bucket list. I feel like I have a... I have a reversed bucket list, and that's not to want to do anything, and I think every day, like right now, if I just stroked and died today, I feel like I've done all the things I wanted to do with people who knew that I loved them, heard from me today, and I wanted to do this with you today, and I got to do it and I don't have anything on my bucket list. Wow, love it. Thank you for having me, and it's absolutely... I just, I know I'm on your Podcast, but I really wanna plug you because I think I've worked with many, many coaches in my short life of life coaching, and you're probably one of my all time favorite coaches, so I'm plugging you in on your own Podcast. That's very sweet of you, thank you. And likewise, of course, you're one of a very small number of people who's made onto this Podcast until now. Thank you so much, have a wonderful day, Dex. You too. If you're in burnout and ready to recover, come and join my Burnout to Leadership program. You can book in to talk with me at burnout.dexrandall.com. Just tell me what's bugging you and let's make a plan to fix it.